Re: The Faistos disc tradegy

From: grapheus (grapheus_at_www.com)
Date: 08/18/04 

Date: 18 Aug 2004 00:43:18 -0700

pharisson@yahoo.ca wrote in message news:<f2b64e4d.0408171651.1be92e1c@posting.google.com>...
> grapheus@www.com (grapheus) wrote in message news:<337ae51f.0408160445.bd28e1d@posting.google.com>...
> > pharisson@yahoo.ca wrote in message news:<f2b64e4d.0408151909.33bfbe0c@posting.google.com>...
> > > qakare@hotmail.com (Qakare) wrote in message news:<dad05270.0408122238.4e3c6dad@posting.google.com>...
> > > > > "The Phaistos Disk was found at Crete" ... grapheus answer:
> > > > > The CLAY is not Minoan -- the BAKING of it is not Minoan --
> > > > > the USE of STAMPS IN RELIEF is not Minoan (the ONLY EXAMPLE
> > > > > found, the Jug n° 14276 is an obvious import) -- the
> > > > > CHARACTERS of the Disk are not Minoan (e.g. the "crested head"
> > > > > or "the ship") -- the SCRIPT is not Minoan ..
> > > > > ALL these characteristics are CYCLADIC and PROTO-IONIAN !..
> > > >
> > > > You ignoring that sign 21 was also found on a seal from Phaistos, that
> > > > the Arkalohori Axe was also found at crete. On the other side you have
> > > > no proofs that the clay is Cycladic, that the baking is Cycladic,
> > > > that stamps in relief are Cycladic, that the characters are Cycladic!
> > > >
> > > > > "There lived Minoans at Phaistos" ... grapheus answer: Of course,
> > > > > there were Minoans at Phaistos : the ONES who ROBBED
> > > > > the PHAISTOS DISK in a PROTO-IONIAN MORTUARY TEMPLE and put it into
> > > > > the TEMPLE DEPOSITORY of the FIRST PALACE !...
> > > >
> > > > This is one of your fairy tails. You have no hint for such a story.
> > > > Fact is that the Phaistos Disk was found in a Minoan context.
> > > > Therefore as long as no hint against a Minoan origin is found he must
> > > > taken as Minoan!
> > > >
> > > > > "There are similarities to the Arkalochori axe" ... grapheus answer:
> > > > > YES, there are SIMILARITIES -NOT IDENTITY!- between the Phaistos
> > > > > Disk's script and the Arkalokhori Axe script!... And THESE
> > > > > SIMILARITIES have even BEEN fully EXPLAINED by J.Faucounau in
> > > > > one of his papers about the "Proto-Philistine Scripts" !...
> > > >
> > > > Obviously you like Faucounau hate to give the exact position where a
> > > > argument is explained in detail. Anyway a explanation is not a proof
> > > > and therefore the Arkalohori axe is a hint for the Minoan origin of
> > > > the Phaistos Disc!
> > > >
> > > > > "The use of prefixes is like in Linear A" ... grapheus answer: Seing
> > > > > "PREFIXES" in the Phaistos Disk text is NOTHING BUT AN UNFOUNDED
> > > > > HYPOTHESIS !.. It has been now demonstrated that what
> > > > > Y.Duhoux and others believe to be "PREFIXES" are NOT such !..
> > > > > They are the KAS-particle and the DEMONSTRATIVES, used as
> > > > > "Introductory particles"...AND THIS has been DEFINITELY ESTABLISHED by
> > > > > the fact that the Proto-Ionic Solution, as a whole, *IS* CORRECT !...
> > > >
> > > > That you have chosen to ignore the prefixes 07, 27 and 29 is your
> > > > problem. But this changes nothing on the fact that the are used on the
> > > > Phaistos Disc and that the are proofs against the Faucounaus solution.
> > > >
> > > > Your always try to mention only the argument for the proto-ionic
> > > > solution and to ignore the facts against this theory giving ridiculous
> > > > explanations. Obviously you hate it to discuss the critical points of
> > > > Faucounaus theory.
> > > >
> > > > According to Popper for a scientific theory it is necessary to be
> > > > xaminableness. This requires that a theory must contain empirically
> > > > examinable consequences, which make it possible to indicate empirical
> > > > conditions under which the theory as wrong to be regarded is. That
> > > > means: With all the possibility must exist results of disproving
> > > > these by tests and counter proofs.
> > > > This differentiates scientific from non-scientific thinking. The
> > > > cognition research had shown up to now that it falls all humans except
> > > > the scientists heavily to think "examinable". Only scientists refer
> > > > this way of thinking into their decision-making processes.
> > > > Sociological studies besides resulted in that scientists spend most
> > > > time thereby, to disprove their own theories. As Stephen Hawkins,
> > > > which threw its theory of the parallel universe recently simply over
> > > > board.
> > > >
> > > > qakare
> > > >
> > > > grapheus@www.com (grapheus) wrote in message news:<337ae51f.0408121011.37b7fb6b@posting.google.com>...
> > > > > qakare@hotmail.com (Qakare) wrote in message news:<dad05270.0408120233.f569b25@posting.google.com>...
> > > > > > Faucounaus story is as good as Hagens one. Both are pure speculations
> > > > > > without any proof! (In the case of Hagen there is no hint for a
> > > > > > calendar and in the case of Faucounau there is no hint for a greek
> > > > > > language.)
> > > > >
> > > > > When one WANTS to BE BLIND, he *IS* blind !..
> > > > > There are MORE THAN 30 DECISIVE PIECES of EVIDENCE that the
> > > > > Proto-Ionic Solution *IS* the CORRECT ONE. But you go on REPEATING
> > > > > again and again your SAME MOTTO : "There are no Proofs! There are no
> > > > > Proofs!" WITHOUT HAVING EVEN READ the J.F.'s book "Les Proto-Ioniens"
> > > > > !!!!
> > > > > IGNARROGANTS are like that : they ALWAYS KNOW THE FILE without having
> > > > > opened it !...
> > > > >
> > > > > grapheus
> > >
> > > Qakare,
> > >
> > > Certainly, there are no prefixes in Linear A, B and on the Phaistos
> > > Disc. The symbols 07, 27, and 29 are not prefixes, but ordinary
> > > syllables as all the others. What is their phonetic value in your
> > > view? I did not find your decipherment. You don't have absolute any
> > > evidence that Linear A and the PD have prefixes. Many European
> > > languages including English have words that could appear to some
> > > foreign speakers as having prefixes. They are totally different and
> > > unrelated words which apparently have a common root. These words are
> > > not inflexions.
> > >
> > > - act-pact-react-impact-contact-compact-contract
> > >
> > > Initially it was an important observation of some possible IE
> > > inflexions in Linear B and A, but at this stage of research the idea
> > > became obsolete. Nevertheless the PD is not deciphered yet the
> > > available historical, anthropological, archaeological and pictographic
> > > evidence indicate, without any doubt, the Indo-European origin of the
> > > Minoan civilization.
> > >
> > > BTW, who are the scientists, in your personal view, in this situation?
> > > What do you want to imply?
> > >
> > > Paul
> >
> > I agree with all what you wrote except on two points : the Phaistos
> > Disk is NOT a Minoan artifact 2)- it has been DEFINITELY deciphered
> > (See the books, alas in French!, of J.Faucounau : "Les
> > Proto-Ioniens.." and "Le dechiffrement du Disque de Phaistos", and the
> > numerous PROOFS he has presented).
> >
> > Regards
> > grapheus
>
> Thanks, Grapheus. I was not expected you to totally agree with me and,
> in turn, you cannot expect that I will agree entirely with the
> proto-Ionian theory of Faucouneau and his decipherment of the Linear A
> and the Phaistos Disc.

J.F. has not deciphered the Linear A script. He considers that, as
long as there is no TEXT of some length, but only LISTS, the task is
impossible. Moreover, he believes that Linear A covers several
languages or dialects...

> It is not enough to say that Faucouneau used
> the statistic method to decipher the PD. You must explain how you (or
> he) found the phonetic value of each sign and why that one - and only
> that one - is the true value. If you found it through a divine
> inspiration or through some elaborated calculations it is not
> important if the value is demonstrably correct. On the other hand I
> believe that you can decipher the script through statistics, but I
> doubt that you can identify the true language. If someone assumes,
> from the very beginning, that the language is Greek he will force the
> decipherment of the script into Greek and the resulting text will be
> not the real text of the inscription.

No. You cannot "force the decipherment", except if you are accepting
some kind of UNKNOWN and ILLOGICAL DIALECT. This results from the
Shannon's work : the length of the Phaistos Disk TEXT is enough for
reaching the "Unicity" of the solution. In other words, if one chooses
the WRONG language or dialect, he has to force the grammar or the
phonetics to reach a "decipherment".
As for the choice of the Proto-Ionic, it results, said J.F., from the
characteristics of the script, which distinguishes long A from short
A, but confuses O and U, these characteristics being the conclusion
of the Statistical calculations he made (but not published in detail
at the present day).

> Every one of us has in the back
> of his mind the idea that the language might be Greek. It might not
> be. For some reasons I do not believe that the name of the language
> was proto-Ionian, as you called it, or that it was Greek. Who are the
> proto-Ionians, anyway?

The name "Proto-Ionian" is not mine, but J.F.'s. In his book "Les
Proto-Ioniens..", he has explained why he chose this name.
The Proto-Ionians were the "First Greek wave" (following P.
Kretschmer), which, contrary to the "Achaean" and the "Dorian" waves,
arrived by sea. Their existence has been PROVED, outside the Phaistos
Disk (See again the J.F.'s book about "Les Proto-Ioniens..."
By saying "It might not be", you put your finger on the most important
point : the Proto-Ionic decipherment has not been showed OK by the
METHOD that J.F. followed, but by the "a posteriori" PROOFS he has
gathered. That is what I've said from the beginning on...

Regards

grapheus

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