Re: ocean sailing rafts (Re: Lapita??

From: benlizross (benlizro_at_ihug.co.nz)
Date: 08/19/04 

Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:34:59 +1200

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
>
> benlizross <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message news:<41225EF4.706E@ihug.co.nz>...
> > Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
> > >
> > > benlizross wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Qiwi wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > [Yuri:]
> > > > > > > But the Polynesian-speakers never sailed rafts. Only canoes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yuri...
> > > > > > In 1998 in an exchange with Ross Clark you provided the following
> > > > > > information....
> > > > > > "The traditions of Tonga and Samoa make repeated mention of the use of
> > > > > > large sailing rafts in old times; indeed, in Tonga they are even
> > > > > > creditedwith having been the vessels employed for the conveyance of
> > > > > > some cyclopean masses used in the construction of their megalithic
> > > > > > monuments from Wallis Island, 500 miles to the northward."
> > > > > > SOUTH AMERICAN BALSAS;THE PROBLEM OF THEIR ORIGIN. James Hornell
> > > > > > 1931:353
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ",,there were four types of Moriori water-craft, all much alike and
> > > > > > all wash-through raft boats. Neither dug-out nor plank canoes, nor
> > > > > > the outrigger, was known in this group."
> > > > > > THE CANOES OF THE MORIORIS. A Shand 1871
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "The natives in the Tuamotu group immediately distinguished the Kon
> > > > > > Tiki balsa raft as pae-pae, telling his crew that such craft were
> > > > > > well known to their ancestors and were described in their earliest
> > > > > > songs and traditions as pae-pae or sometimes as rongo-rongo. The
> > > > > > raftsmen of Mangareva also referred to their own rafts as pae-pae
> > > > > > (Seurat, 1905:483)"
> > > > > > Shand 1911:86
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Beechey, who was the first European explorer to visit Mangareva, or
> > > > > > the Gambier Islands, to the west of Easter Island also wrote how the
> > > > > > 'natives' came paddling out to his ship on a flotilla of log rafts.
> > > > > > Beechey 1831:109
> > > > > > 8)
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi, Qiwi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Now you're using my own posts to refute myself... Oh, well,
> > > > > I suppose I should have been more precise in what I said...
> > > > > :(
> > > > >
> > > > > Sailing rafts were a South American tradition. They were
> > > > > still actively used when the Spanish came to the west coast
> > > > > of South America.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, there's substantial evidence that the sailing rafts
> > > > > had been used in Polynesia in very ancient times -- before
> > > > > the arrival of the Polynesian speakers, whose main mode of
> > > > > transport was a canoe.
> > > >
> > > > It would be interesting to see some of this substantial evidence, Yuri.
> > >
> > > You're looking at some of it (right above).
> > >
> > > > Last time this came up, IIRC, what you had was scattered references to
> > > > the use of rafts in various parts of Polynesia, some in the present
> > > > (Mangareva, Chatham Is.) and some in the past. I do not recall you
> > > > having anything that would establish these as either "very ancient
> > > > times"
> > >
> > > Such as the time when those megalithic monuments on Wallis
> > > Island were constructed...
> >
> > Well, you are actually misreading Hornell slightly here. The megalithic
> > monuments in question are actually in Tonga,
>
> My mistake...
>
> > and the rafts were used
>
> So they were used, after all!

Nobody ever denied that they were used. In this case they were used
because they were the best means for this very unusual task of
inter-island transport of huge blocks of stone.

> > to transport large blocks of stone _from_ Wallis Island to Tonga for
> > construction of same. This probably dates from the time when Wallis
> > (Uvea) was under Tongan domination, in what Kirch calls the "late
> > prehistoric". Do you have a specific opinion as to how "very ancient"
> > this period was?
>
> I'll accept that the time was "late prehistoric". Which means very
> early.

Yuri, in the context of Tonga, "prehistoric" extends up to the 17th
century AD. Do you know what "late" means? Hint: It doesn't mean
"early".

>
> > > > or "before the arrival of the Polynesian speakers".
> > >
> > > Since you don't accept that there was _anyone_ on these
> > > islands before the arrival of the Polynesian speakers, it
> > > would be kinda hard to prove to you that those "nobodies"
> > > were using rafts...
> >
> > So in other words, just as you have no good evidence that anyone
> > preceded the Polynesians in Polynesia,
>
> I'm saying that the raft users preceded the Polynesians in Polynesia.

For which we are still waiting for you to present evidence. The
Tuamotuans said that "their ancestors" (your quote) had used rafts.

> > you also have no good evidence
> > for associating the use of rafts with these putative pre-Polynesians?
>
> Megalithic builders seem to have been pre-Polynesians.

No, megalithic builders seem to have been Polynesians. The Tongans knew
who had built the tombs and the people buried therein were in their
genealogies.

>
> > > > But perhaps
> > > > you have uncovered some new evidence?
> > > >
> > > > Ross Clark
> > >
> > > Ah... such remarkable yearning for "new evidence" on the
> > > part of someone who's never been able to absorb any of the
> > > old evidence...
> >
> > Alas, I absorbed it long ago. It just never had the effect it seems to
> > have on you.
> >
> > Ross Clark
>
> Most people who examine,
>
> http://www.globalserve.net/~yuku
>
> agree with me.

Have you done a survey?

Ross Clark

Relevant Pages

  • LAPITA......
    ... The discovery that the first people to settle Samoa & Tonga were ... The first solution that must have sprung to mind was that the 'Lapita' ... pottery making people were some earlier group, possibly Melanesian, ... who had proceeded the Polynesians to Tonga & Samoa... ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • LAPITA......
    ... The discovery that the first people to settle Samoa & Tonga were ... The first solution that must have sprung to mind was that the 'Lapita' ... pottery making people were some earlier group, possibly Melanesian, ... who had proceeded the Polynesians to Tonga & Samoa... ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • LAPITA......
    ... The discovery that the first people to settle Samoa & Tonga were ... The first solution that must have sprung to mind was that the 'Lapita' ... pottery making people were some earlier group, possibly Melanesian, ... who had proceeded the Polynesians to Tonga & Samoa... ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: LAPITA......
    ... > pottery making people were some earlier group, possibly Melanesian, ... > still being manufactured in Tonga into the early centuries AD, ... > big question was if the Polynesians weren't yet in Tonga in 200ad, ... What you mean by the "Orthodox theory" at this point is quite unclear. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Lapita??
    ... > Yuri Kuchinsky wrote: ... > Polynesians as coming from South America and British Columbia, ... > from the Marquesas ought to be later than, respectively, Easter ... Lapita culture. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
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