Re: New book identifies Ireland as Atlantis

From: limestone-cowboy (calciumcarbonateformula_cowboy_at_BTInternet.com)
Date: 08/25/04 

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:32:28 +0100

"Diarmid Logan" <diarmidlogan@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:622d5dd0.0408250839.2879bcff@posting.google.com...
> limestone-cowboy <calciumcarbonateformula_cowboy@btinternet.com> wrote in
message news:<412a4040$0$74576$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>...
> > Diarmid Logan wrote:
> >
> > > limestone-cowboy <calciumcarbonateformula_cowboy@btinternet.com> wrote
in
> > > message news:<4127a529$0$71906$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>...
> > >> Diarmid Logan wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > limestone-cowboy <calciumcarbonateformula_cowboy@btinternet.com>
wrote
> > >> > in message
> > >> > news:<41251aaa$0$16191$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net>...
> > >> >> Diarmid Logan wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > Ken Down <diggings@argonet.co.uk> wrote in message
> > >> >> > news:<na.4c8bb34ce0.a60290diggings@argonet.co.uk>...
> > >> >> >> In artvendetta5dd0.0408180719.4966ceb7@posting.google.com>,
> > >> >> >> diarmidlogan@gmail.com (Diarmid Logan) wrote:
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> > The British need to be attacked because they are running a
colony
> > >> >> >> > in the north of Ireland that oppresses the indigenous Irish
> > >> >> >> > people. "Northern Ireland" is run purely for the benefit of
the
> > >> >> >> > British colonists known as the unionists.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> You may wish to object to what your distorted view of reality
> > >> >> >> perceives to be a problem, but I still don't understand why you
> > >> >> >> need to attack people? Have you ever heard of peaceful protest?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Have you ever heard of Bloody Sunday? The only way that you can
deal
> > >> >> > with British colonialism is through violence.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> If you continue to live in the past what hope is there for
peaceful
> > >> >> existence for the people of Northern Ireland.
> > >> >
> > >> > The oppression is ongoing.
> > >>
> > >> Rubbish, on what basis is this statement made.
> > >
> > > The growing support for Sinn Fein amongst the indigenous Irish
> > > population of the Six Counties.
> > >
> >
> > This may not be the whole reason for Sinn Feinn doing well at the polls.
> >
> > The support for a particular political party may have something to do
with
> > individual representatives. By contrast in the UK one of the reasons the
> > Conservatives aren't doing particularly well is because they have a
> > particularly poor selection of candidates.
>
> So you are saying that indigenous Irish people in the Six Counties are
> voting for Sinn Fein candidates even if they don't agree with the
> party itself? Why would anyone vote for a member of a party that they
> didn't agree with?
>
>
>
>
> > >> > Wrong. The indigenous Irish only use violence to fight against
> > >> > colonial oppression. The murdering thugs are on the British side.
> > >>
> > >> Dream on pal...I think the split is nearer 50:50 for blame at the
moment.
> > >> There is no need for violence under current conditions. What we
really
> > >> need is people who are prepared to talk.
> > >
> > > Wrong. You don't talk to the people who are oppressing you. You use as
> > > much violence as possible in order to bring that oppression to an end.
> >
> > You have a chip on your shoulder the size of a fully grown Dutch Elm
tree.
>
> Okay, so what? How does that invalidate my arguments?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > >> >> Why should they have their lives
> > >> >> blighted by these so called freedom fighters/loyalists who are
nothing
> > >> >> more than mafia style gang members.
> > >> >
> > >> > You are describing the loyalists (i.e. British colonists) but your
> > >> > description does not represent the republicans who are indigenous
> > >> > Irish people fighting against British colonial oppression.
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> Bank robbing, drug selling thugs on both sides....
> > >
> > > Wrong. It is the loyalists who engage in drug dealing. The IRA often
> > > engages in violence against drug dealers.
> > >
> >
> > So there are no drug addicts in the Republican areas then, or do they
get
> > there gear provided free.
>
> There are drug addicts in Republican areas but they have nothing to do
> with the IRA. In fact, the IRA has been accused of using violence
> against drug dealers who operate in Republican areas.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > >> >> We don't want the loyalist thugs in Britain,
> > >> >
> > >> > Too bad because that is where they came from.
> > >>
> > >> No! they were born to parents who may have lived in the area for
several
> > >> hundred years.
> > >
> > > Doesn't matter. They are part of a colonial population that has been
> > > oppressing the indigenous Irish for centuries. Therefore they have no
> > > right to live in Ireland and the indigenous Irish are justified in
> > > using whatever means are necessary in order to rid themelves of this
> > > colonial population.
> > >
> >
> > You are grouping all people together by their ancestry, rather than
> > admitting that there are arseholes on both sides that the world could be
> > well rid of.
>
> I am grouping people on the basis of whether or not they belong to an
> oppressed indigenous population or an oppressive colonial one. If you
> are fighting to liberate an oppressed indigenous people - as the IRA
> does - then you are not an "arsehole".
>
>
>
>
>
> > >> hey are no more English or Scots than they the majority of
> > >> Americans whose forebears have lived on that continent for the same
> > >> period of time.
> > >
> > > The Americans of British ancestry are British and are immorally
> > > occupying land that rightfully belongs to the Native American peoples.
> > >
> >
> > The Americans who carried out the genocide against the native Indians
were
> > of many nationalities, English, Irish, Scots, Welsh, Germans, Italians
etc.
>
> Wrong. They were mostly of English or Scottish ancestry.
>
>
>
>
> > >> You are living in a dream, something akin to Brigadoon but set in
> > >> Ireland.
> > >
> > > Wrong. I am someone who is able to see the evil that colonialism has
> > > brought to the world.
> >
> > And condone the murder of innocent people in order to sort it all out.
>
> Colonists are not innocent, therefore killing them is not murder.
>

If someone is born in an area through no choice of their own they
automatically become a "legitimate" target by your reasoning. At what age
do they become a colonist or are new born babies legitimate targets too.

>
>
>

snip

> >
> > So where do you draw the line, who has to be killed before it stops
being
> > worthwhile. Would it not be better to live peacefully together than to
die
> > violently together.
>
> Oppressed indigenous peoples cannot live peacefully with the colonists
> who are oppressing them. The only way that indigenous peoples can live
> in peace is to end oppression and the only way to do that is to end
> colonialism.

Many of these people who you want out of the north have been there all their
lives and all they have done wrong in your eyes is have the wrong ancestors.
The colonialism if any remains is in the minds of a sizeable majority on
both sides. I would strongly debate the theory that this is an active
assertion of UK influence on the North. Westminster would happily put an end
to the cost of maintaining additional troop levels in Northern Ireland. The
troop numbers have already declined significantly and would do so much
further if the threat of violence was removed.

>
> > >> True love is a strange thing, it has no idea of race, religion or
> > >> political persuasions.
> > >
> > > Another who could love someone from a group that is oppressing their
> > > people is nothing more than a traitor.
> > >
> >
> > This is in opposition to your final paragraph
>
> How so?
>

You stated that:

"I have no problems with anyone living in Ireland as long as they support an
united Ireland that is free of British colonial rule."

So if they couldn't give a toss about religion or politics they can be in
love? Or do they have to make a declaration along the lines of your
statement before they are allowed to be together.

>
> > >> >> What would you
> > >> >> do with the other ethnic minorities in the province, after all
they
> > >> >> may not be descended from the indigenous Vikings or Celts.
> > >> >
> > >> > I have no problems with immigrants who don't support British
> > >> > colonialism. The only people that I have a problem with are those
who
> > >> > support colonialism. Anyone who wants to live in a free and united
> > >> > Ireland is welcome to live there as far as I am concerned.
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> You assume that those born of Protestant parents are there as
supporters
> > >> of British colonialism.
> > >
> > > They are. Look at who votes for the various unionist parties.
> > >
And the people who don't vote on either side because they are sick of the
politics.

> > >
> > >> Perhaps it is just because the live there, were born
> > >> there and would like to die of old age there.
> > >
> > > If they support colonialism then they have no right to do any of those
> > > things.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> >> Furthermore you would
> > >> >> be setting a precedent requiring all people of Irish descent to
be
> > >> >> returned to the "old country" forcibly if necessary.
> > >> >
> > >> > I would have no problem with that. Remember most indigenous Irish
> > >> > people left Ireland because of British colonialism not because they
> > >> > wanted to leave Ireland.
> > >> >

including some of my own ancestors who moved to Liverpool from Kilkenny.

> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >> I remember watching the Rose of Tralee contest whilst working in
> > >> >> Limerick (Stab City to the locals), and marvelling at the
wonderful
> > >> >> Hollywood style Irish accents of the beautiful girls from Boston
whose
> > >> >> families had emigrated from ireland 150 years before.
> > >> >
> > >> > Irrelevant.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >> My host, a true born Limerick man
> > >> >> was in hysterics at all of this pretence.
> > >> >
> > >> > *Yawn* So what?
> > >>
> > >> I was pointing out that the Irish themselves are generally
disinterested
> > >> in the cosy image that many Irish Americans have of there beloved
> > >> homeland.
> > >
> > > I am not an Irish American unless you are saying that someone who was
> > > born in Drogheda is an American.
> > >
> > >
> > >> Having worked in the republic I have yet to hear anyone condone the
> > >> violence in the north.
> > >
> > > Are you saying that no one in the Republic supports the IRA?
> > >
> > >
> > >> This is completely different from the late 60's
> > >> when the IRA used to go around the pubs raising money. If you didn't
> > >> cough up a few quid they were less than polite.
> > >
> > >
> > > *Sigh* More nonsense.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> >> These people left Ireland
> > >> >> because of the hard times there,
> > >> >
> > >> > Hard times that were created by British colonialism.
> > >>
> > >> Probably, however that colonialism is long gone.
> > >
> > > Wrong. It still exists in the north of Ireland.
> > >
> > >
> > >> Turning the clock back
> > >> isn't possible so people should get on with living in harmony.
> > >
> > > As long as British colonialism is ongoing in the north of Ireland the
> > > indigenous Irish of the Six Counties will never be able to live their
> > > lives in harmony.
> > >
> > >
> > >> It's better
> > >> than filling up cemeteries with young mens bodies.
> > >
> > > It is British colonialism that is filling the cemeteries with the
> > > bodies of the indigenous Irish.
> > >
> > >> I would however condone to a small degree the events of the early
20th
> > >> century with the uprisings in southern ireland, although atrocities
were
> > >> carried out by both sides.
> > >
> > > The only atrocities were commited by the British colonists. It is not
> > > an atrocity to fight against a colonial population that is oppressing
> > > you.
> > >
> > >
> > >> (This was told to my father by a former IRA
> > >> member from Achill Island back in 1968).
> > >
> > > Only in your imagination.
> > >
> > >
> > >> >> their lives in north America were more
> > >> >> prosperous and fulfilling yet there is a Guinness sponsored image
of
> > >> >> the Emerald Isle that many Americans fall for.
> > >> >
> > >> > The reason that their lives were better in America was because they
> > >> > were not oppressed there as they were in British-ruled Ireland.
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> Irish people still emigrate to America despite the healthy economy in
> > >> Eire.
> > >
> > > Irish people today in 2004 are most likely to emigrate for a couple of
> > > years to get experience of working in another country before moving
> > > back to Ireland to live.
> > >
> >
> > The population of Eire is very small considering the size of the
country.
>
> So what?
>
>
> > Dublin is by no means a big city (Cork, Limerick etc are fairly small
too).
>
> Again, so what?
>
>
> > I understand that much of the stabilisation in Irish population numbers
are
> > due to immigration from the UK and Europe in recent years.
>
> But most of those are Irish immigrants and people of Irish ancestry
> returning to Ireland.
>

A vague statement, considering that many of these people are 50% British (or
more). There are of course a lot of Germans who have property around Cork
and Dungarven, most of them won't be of irish extraction.

>
> > The UK of
> > course has a significant Irish population if considering people who are
> > first to third generation immigrants to the UK.
>
> And of course the reason why so many Irish people had to emigrate was
> because of the consequences of British colonialism in Ireland.

The point being that the ancestors of many of the British your are so angry
with lived in Ireland during the worst phases of oppression. I am not
saying that the oppression didn't happen or that it in itself is excusable,
however the average British person was not the perpetrator. The majority of
Irelands problems stem from the 1700's and 1800's when the UK was ruled by a
predominantly foreign monarchy who cared little for the people of Ireland
and only slightly more for the people of Scotland, Wales and Northern
England who were also "persuaded" to give up lands for the large estates or
to provide a workforce for the developing industry of the UK. At some stages
the British Army comprised approximately 50% Irish emigrees who desperate
for a job took the pay of the crown and fought for the Empire across the
world.

>
> > The 2001 Census indicates
> > nearly 700,000 Irish people in the UK, probably an underestimate
> > considering that many people avoid detailing their ethnic origin on such
> > forms.
>
> So what?

Since these are probably 1st generation immigrants to the Uk it gives some
idea as to the vast numbers of people in the UK of Irish descent (I would
guess at 7 million 1st to 5th generation Irish).

>
>
> > If Britain were to be sunk in the sea as you have suggested then many of
> > your fellow countrymen would go too.
>
> Then I guess they should come back to Ireland then.
>

Causing the economy to do what? And the lovely houses currently being built
around the south would be inundated by vast housing estates to cope with the
influx.

>
>
>
>
>
> > >> >> And if i have to be repatriated anywhere...it would have to be my
arse
> > >> >> and legs to Ireland, my arms to Devon, my head to Scotland and my
body
> > >> >> to County Durham, but my heart stays right here pal....
> > >> >
> > >> > I would have no problem with that since you would not be able to
> > >> > oppress anyone in such a divided condition.
> > >>
> >
> > Just what oppression am I being blamed for now. If I've been oppressing
> > anywhere I'd like to be notified so I can see what I was doing that day
and
> > apologise if necessary.
>
> The system in the north of Ireland oppresses the indigenous Irish in
> the Six Counties. If you support that system then you are supporting
> the oppression of the indigenous Irish population.

My point is that no one that I know is actively supporting colonialism
anywhere, least of all in Ireland. If working in Cork, Limerick, Shannon
and Dublin helping to develop the road network and sewers is oppression then
I may have helped, or spending money on holidays in Wexford then perhaps....

>
>
>
> > >> You have a dangerous view of life Diarmid that seems to assume that
none
> > >> of these Irish murderers are in the wrong.
> > >
> > > *Sigh* The murderers are on the side of British colonialism. It is not
> > > murder to use violence against the very people who are oppressing you.
> > >
> >
> > If shooting someone in cold blood isn't murder what the f*** is.
>
> Shooting a colonist is not murder, it is using violence against an
> oppressive invader.
>

Invader! Is this a current invasion or are you still talking about the past.

>
>
>
> > >> So basically you condone any
> > >> murder carried out by Republicans,
> > >
> > > I don't condone murder. I support the use of violence against British
> > > colonists.
> > >
> > Where do you draw the line (or how).
>
> Why would I want to draw a line in using violence against a colonial
> oppressor?
>

I for one would like to know what this ongoing oppression is. I haven't seen
this and as a British person of Irish and Scots descent I would like to have
my say against it if it exists.

>
>
>
> > >> assuming that they cannot be for any
> > >> reason other than "the cause" and are therefore excusable by you.
> > >
> > > It is perfectly justified to use violence against the colonial
> > > population that is oppressing you.
> > >
> >
> > And you are still eminently qualified to make the distinction about who
is
> > doing the oppressing, or do they ALL wear badges...
>
> The indigenous Irish population are the oppressed while the British
> colonists are the oppressors.

You are generalising. What I need is independantly verifiable information.
I did some searches on google but could only find xenophobic web sites by
both sides which were full of propaganda. A level headed account from both
sides would be a start if you could give me some pointers.

>
>
>
> > >> Would
> > >> that excuse also extend to people carrying out family vendettas,
> > >
> > > As I have said I support the use of violence against British colonists
> > > and their allies.
> > >
> > >
> > >> security
> > >> guards killed during bank robberies,
> > >
> > > If those security guards are helping British colonists then they are
> > > legitimate targets.
> > >
> >
> > or they could just be doing their job when these people decide to rob
them.
>
> If you are helping British colonists then you are an enemy of the
> indigenous Irish population.
>

Who is making the distinction. If someone carries out a robbery do they
always check whether the people running the bank or shop are Republicans or
Unionists, or some some poor bloke trying to make a living and provide a
service to the community.

It seems that you assume that everyone has to be on one side or another
because of either an accident of birth (for the Catholics or Protestants) or
because they were foolish enought to need somewhere to live and chose
northern ireland.

>
>
>
> > >> and those poor individuals taken from
> > >> their front door in front of their helpless families in the middle of
the
> > >> night and killed in some dark back lane by these brave freedom
fighters.
> > >
> > > If the people that they kill are aiding the British colonists then
> > > they are perfectly justified in using violence against such traitors.
> > >
> >
> > and the innocent bystanders killed by the blast of the bombs in
Enniskillen,
> > Omagh, Warrington etc.
>
> The only people who were innocents were the ones who were against
> British colonialism in the north of Ireland. It is always regretable
> when such people die. Unfortunately, in any war, innocent people will
> always get killed.
>

Trite stuff! How do you know that any of the victims in Omagh or Warrington
were legitimate targets. What happens if all of the victims had been from a
passing coachload of Japanese tourists. The ballot box doesn't create
similar collateral damage.

>
>
> > Your response is likely to be something about
> > retribution and Bloody Sunday, or that they deserve it for being British
> > but that isn't good enough.
>
> British people are legitimate targets since it is British colonialism
> that is oppressing the indigenous Irish people in the Six Counties. If
> you want Irish freedom fighters to stop using violence against British
> people then you should be working to end British colonialism in the
> north of Ireland.

How? Even though many or the British have family on one or both sides of the
"war".

>
>
> > Innocent people should not be getting shot or
> > blown to pieces in modern day Europe (on any side).
>
> I agree. Fortunately, the British are not innocent so it is perfectly
> acceptable to kill them.

That is absolute rubbish since the vast majority of the British population
have had nothing to do with this colonialism that you speak of.

> > >> I suggest that your listen to something like "There were roses" as
sung
> > >> by Cara Dillon, or "What kind of man is he" by Eric Bogle.
> > >
> > > *Sigh* Can we stick to politics and not digress into music
> > > recommendations?
> >
> > No, I might cross post this to alt.music.folk as well.
>
> Whatever.

>
> > >> There can never be
> > >> a true and lasting peace in Ireland while fools like you are
extolling
> > >> the virtue of an armed struggle.
> > >
> > > Wrong, there can never be peace in Ireland as long as British
> > > colonists are there oppressing the indigenous Irish.
> > >
> > >
> > >> All you will end up with is lots of dead
> > >> people.
> > >
> > > No, that is what you get when you have British colonialism in the
> > > north of Ireland. End the colonial rule and such violence will end.
> > >
> >
> > The people carrying out the violence are unable to see past the next
> > killing.
>
> The reason why Irish freedom fighters must use violence is because of
> British colonialism in the north of Ireland. That violence can only
> end when British colonialism is over.
>

How do you tell when the colonialism has ended when most people have no idea
that it even exists.

>
> > The Unionist gangs see themselves as defenders of British foothold
> > in Ireland and the Republicans see themselves as the saviours of their
> > side, what they don't see is that mainland Britain is not interested and
> > neither is the Celtic Tiger to the south.
>
> Wrong, if the British did not want the Six Counties then they would
> leave and take their foul colonists with them. Most people in the
> Irish Republic want to see an united Ireland.
>

Most people everywhere want to see themselves grow old and not get included
in senseless killing.

>
>
> > All that is left is the bickering
> > in the 6 counties.
>
> No, what is left is a British colonial state that oppresses the
> indigenous Irish population.
>
>
> > >> The people are more likely to get a peaceful future without
> > >> violence and by way of the ballot box.
> > >
> > > Wrong. Peace will only come to the indigenous Irish when British
> > > colonialism is ended in the Six Counties and the foul British
> > > colonists are repatriated back to Britain.
> > >
> >
> > Only the foul ones, ok.
>
> All colonists are foul.

Please define what you mean by a colonist. (I don't mean preach to me).

>
> > But we still don't want them, they don't have our
> > support and seem to live in their own dreamworld where the house of
Hanover
> > is still in power.
>
> And yet the British still maintain a colony in Ireland for them.
>
>
> > >> I would be curious to see if your DNA is any more Irish than many of
the
> > >> people you are suggesting should leave the island.
> > >
> > > Who cares about my DNA? As I have said, the most important thing to me
> > > is that someone not support British colonialism in Ireland. I have no
> > > problems with anyone living in Ireland as long as they support an
> > > united Ireland that is free of British colonial rule.
> >
> > Rather than get caught in the circle of violence where "they did it
first"
> > and "an eye for an eye" are the main justification it's time to stop
> > killing people and get on with living.
>
> No, it is time that the British stop maintaining colonies that oppress
> indigenous peoples. As long as the British insist on maintaining such
> colonies then freedom fighter such as the IRA will have legitimate
> cause to use violence against the British.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: New book identifies Ireland as Atlantis
    ... >> of many nationalities, English, Irish, Scots, Welsh, Germans, Italians ... The colonialism if any remains is in the minds of a sizeable majority on ... considering that many of these people are 50% British (or ... with lived in Ireland during the worst phases of oppression. ...
    (sci.geo.geology)
  • Re: New book identifies Ireland as Atlantis
    ... > So you are saying that indigenous Irish people in the Six Counties are ... > who are oppressing them. ... > because of the consequences of British colonialism in Ireland. ... > The indigenous Irish population are the oppressed while the British ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: New book identifies Ireland as Atlantis
    ... > So you are saying that indigenous Irish people in the Six Counties are ... > who are oppressing them. ... > because of the consequences of British colonialism in Ireland. ... > The indigenous Irish population are the oppressed while the British ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Missing Episodes in Zimbabwe ?
    ... decades between the formation of the Zulu kingdom and British ... colonialism in southern Africa, the Ndebele were forcibly evicted from ... Similar stories played out throughout Africa through time immemorial. ... Do you think the Europeans weren't ...
    (rec.arts.drwho)
  • Re: Genealogy and Heraldry Bill, 2006
    ... Michael and Donnchadh ... My listing of the various events of Irish history was asking you to ... Patrick, it seems that you unfortunately cannot look at British ...
    (rec.heraldry)
Quantcast