Re: KRS - Possible news to come

From: Philip Deitiker (Donevenask_at_worlnet.att.net)
Date: 09/08/04 

Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 06:09:27 GMT

Doug Weller <dweller@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> says in
news:yuz9fbxv79bn$.18jhvyam8nbf1.dlg@40tude.net:

>> Inger writes "They can't be found on net you will have to
>> go to a good library" and you immediately respond by
>> asking for URLs?
>>
>> Eric Stevens
>
> I presumed she meant an url on that site. Do you have any
> idea what she actually meant then? Of course, you may well
> think that the references she is thinking of (if any)
> aren't worth following up.

BTW, Doug, I think the 'diplomas' Inger is refering to are
another name for higher masonic degrees used in scotland by the
Scottish 'skism' of the Freemasons (see their site for specifics
of rules of 1949). These degrees may have been Mastered at some
level by the Sinclair (St.Clair) clan.

http://www.frimurarorden.se/eng/index.htm

Scottish Freemasonry is supposed to be open, you could probably
ask them what are the earliest degrees conferred by Sinclair and
where any conferred to nonscottish scandinavians.

"
In 1756, Carl Fredrik Eckleff together with six brethren formed
the Scottish Lodge L'Innocente in Stockholm, working so called
Scottish St. Andrew's degrees. The next step in the development
of Swedish Freemasonry was taken by Eckleff in 1759, when he
established a Grand Chapter in Stockholm.
"

If so these degrees would have been conferred by Ediburgh.
http://www.grandlodgescotland.com/glos/Literature/Articles/400.h
tml

Also for Micheal there are some photos that illustrate the
widespread and multiethnic spread of Masons, uncluding
individuals who are muslim in faith. Free and accepted masons
thow not by other free and accepted masons, lol.
Not that I am an expert but the process of the Grand National
Lodge of Scotland appears to be how national lodges get formed,
as is apparent in Sweden, once formed they can pattern
themselves in other directions. This does not mean that lodges
might exist prior to this sanctioning, but it means that the
master of the lodge has earned sufficient enought degrees to
start his own lodge, this may vary.

http://www.grandlodgescotland.com/glos/DGL/flags.html
note the American Flag is not on this page.

"
A few countries cover the Royal Arch themes slightly differently
and the Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland recognises
the following Grand Lodges which have St Andrew's LodgesLodges,
which work an equivalent degree:

Denmark
Germany (Land Lodge)
Iceland
Norway
Sweden
"

Note the use of diploma differ from that of american degrees.
The Scottish Lodges and the Scottish Rite in the American Lodge
are two different beasts.

The contradiction of Mdm.Inger, maybe misinformation is that the
above states individuals would have to pass St.Andrews and not
St.Clairs charter. Again, as consistent with all the literature
there is no instance we can assign to a swedish lodge or degree
being offered by St Andrew before 1360. While there could be
secret degrees offered under St.Clair such degrees probably
required a voyage to Scotland directly for conferation. Not
before 1440 either.

The question to ask her would be what evidence can she present
that St.Clair diplomas were conferred directly in Sweden and
what is the exact date on the oldest degree, and get her to send
you proof (by email) I would be willing to bet she cannot do
this. If diplomas were not conferred in sweden, then you can bet
that these masonic organizations, even in secret, never got very
big, but more importantly did not predate 1360.
  Even if ex-Templar migrated to Sweden in 1314 there is no way
these Templar could award a diploma for St.Clair as they would
have not have any official association with the family
organizations. Even the very earliest claims of masonry in
Scotland, are from 1296 to 1307 and show no association with the
Sinclair family and Zilch about Sweden. 

-- 
Philip
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