Re: KRS - artificial weathering

From: I E Johansson (ingerxjohanssonx_at_telia.com)
Date: 09/17/04 

Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 06:24:39 GMT

zolota,
the suggested method of yours is one of the easiest to detect of all
according to scientists here.

Inger E

"zolota" <zolota3@REMOVEshaw.ca> skrev i meddelandet
news:Bev2d.30591$%S.1340@pd7tw2no...
>
> "Martin Reboul" <martin.reboul@SPAMFUKvirgin.net> wrote in message
> news:Joo2d.361$YE3.166@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...
> >
> > "I E Johansson" <ingerxjohanssonx@telia.com> wrote in message
> > news:W4o2d.103488$dP1.373031@newsc.telia.net...
> >>
> >> "Eric Stevens" <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
> >> news:envjk0tfv5c3s7c9j8rfidcvbsepgagkc3@4ax.com...
> >> > On 16 Sep 2004 13:02:13 -0700, trolleyfan@earthlink.net (David
> >> > Johnson) wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >Eric Stevens <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
> >> news:<2qtik0pbvlk7du6s6c3f4ke6fjsh6q81bv@4ax.com>...
> >> > >> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 04:45:43 GMT, "Martin Reboul"
> >> > >> <martin.reboul@SPAMFUKvirgin.net> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >"Daryl Krupa" <icycalmca@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> > >> >news:c70365ef.0409151557.51d3e94b@posting.google.com...
> >> > >> >> "zolota" <zolota3@REMOVEshaw.ca> wrote in message
> >> > >> news:<7fU1d.418855$M95.214117@pd7tw1no>...
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> <snip genuine scholarly discourse, for a welcome change>
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> Z:
> >> > >> >> Finally, some meat to chew on.
> >> > >> >> Thank you very much for elevating the standard of discussion;
> >> > >> >> very useful and interesting you have been, with this artificial
> >> > >> >> weathering material.
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> > Does anyone here see an error in my thinking, or
> >> > >> >> > a way that such artificial aging could be detected?
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> Not yet, but I'm trying to play Devil's Advocate and wear
away
> >> > >> >> at it until a few pieces fall away.
> >> > >> >> But here's a poser:
> >> > >> >> is there some commonly-available sticky substance that is
immune
> >> > >> >> to the effects of sulfuric acid, that might have been used to
> >> > >> >> mask the calcite and so protect it from degradation?
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >Bitumen, but that would be hard to remove. Good old butter or
lard
> >> would do the
> >> > >> >job quite well ...
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Nope. They would be hydrolysed by the acid.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > ... and be easily removed with soap and a good scrub. That's
what
> >> > >> >I'd go for.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> ... and you would fail.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >I doubt if they were that sophisticated however. Zolota's
> >> > >> >'weathering
> >> plan'
> >> > >> >sounds like the sort of thing that might well have been done.
> >> Basically, just an
> >> > >> >acceleration of the natural weathering processes using empirical
> >> > >> >and
> >> > >> >indetectable methods - all available in the C19 ....
> >> > >>
> >> > >> What are these indetectable methods?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > .... without needing a laboratory.
> >> > >> >The use of salt and ice (to lower the temperature to almost -32C
or
> >> zero F) is
> >> > >> >also hardly rocket science, and would have been well known back
> >> > >> >then.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Its also a good antifreeze. Was that quite your intention?
> >> > >
> >> > >I see someone's never made ice cream...
> >> >
> >> > Salt and ice makes a freezing mixture with a lower freezing point.
Get
> >> > the three together and you get a lower temperature mix. But to do
that
> >> > you have to have liquid present. What Martin is looking for is solid
> >> > ice, not a sluch of water and ice. Adding salt will not help him
> >> > unless he does it in a separate bath which is somehow going to freeze
> >> > the KRS by conduction. Its a pity they didn't have plastic bags in
the
> >> > 19th century. :-)
> >>
> >> Since I was one had the responsibility delivering salt to put on
> >> ice-roads
> >> here in Western Sweden 1976-79 I can confirm that between -6 degrees
> >> Celsius
> >> and +5 degrees Celsius(when supercold rain falls on ice-roads) the
result
> >> when salt is spread on ice-surface will be melting water. As Eric
> >> indicated
> >> the air around helps the salt melting the ice and there will be no
> >> reaction
> >> alike David's imaginary weathering scenario. So I agree with Eric: What
a
> >> pity they didn't have plastic bags in 19th century :-)
> >
> > And they put you in charge of delivering road salt - in Sweden!?
> > No wonder Volvo's are built like tanks!
> >
> > It's nothing to do with the air, it's simply that salt water freezes at
a
> > lower
> > temperature than fresh.
> > Cheers
> > Martin
>
> A salt-ice-water mix will have a depressed freezing temperature but mixing
> the three can only be the sum of the sensible heat of the mix. If you
> started with 1 kg of ice at -9 degrees C, 500 g of ice water, and 100
grams
> of salt you will arrive at -6 C or so. If I was faking a surface I'd just
> drop the hot rock in ice water, it's the rate of cooling that does the
most
> damage. A rock left outside overnight on a three dog night then hit with
> boiling water would also spall! If anything these methods may be too
strong,
> but the serious forger would never have left something she was not
satified
> with.
>
> It also seems to me that some stone masons must have traditionally had
some
> some methods of artificially aging rocks. Say for example that a church
> wants to put an addition onto one side. The master with the reputation who
> could age the rocks to look like the originals would be in demand. It's
> probably a lost art today. Shall we all experiment with rocks using our
> freezers and kettles?
>
> Despite what others say, a rock that had been in salt water would show no
> evidence of the salt later.
>
> Z
>

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