Re: KRS - artificial weathering

From: Eric Stevens (eric.stevens_at_sum.co.nz)
Date: 09/21/04 

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:58:12 +1200

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:10:38 GMT, "zolota" <zolota3@REMOVEshaw.ca>
wrote:

>
>"Eric Stevens" <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
>news:rn3vk0ttf59pree0h82ulgsui6665ifiqm@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:33:17 GMT, "zolota" <zolota3@REMOVEshaw.ca>
>
>SNIP as a public service (a la servicia de la patria)
>
>>>
>>>You must be sure that they will be investigated during the present
>>>research,
>>>documented, compared with what technology knows about faking rock
>>>surfaces,
>>>and reported in a scientific journal.
>>
>> I thought we were discussing what could and could not be done. Not
>> what is or has been done.
>
>If you are so sure that X is possible then surely you expect that X will be
>presented in a scientific manner. what am I missing here?

A father for your expectancy?
>
>>
>>>In the meantime I am waiting for you or someone else to explain which
>>>sub-surface changes you are hinting at.
>>
>> I've already said I can't tell you in detail but do you accept there
>> will be some?
>
>I really expected that you could give examples now.

Then you are deliberately being obtuse. I have several times said I
can't give any specific examples.
>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Remember, if the results are not acceptable the rock is left on the
>>>>>nearest
>>>>>lake.
>>>>>
>>>>>I do not believe that all of the runes are on dressed surfaces, the
>>>>>calcite
>>>>>sheen on part of the face has to have been a fissure filling.
>>>>
>>>> Only the edge has been dressed.
>>>
>>>Okay, glad that is clarrified.
>>>
>>>>
>>>SNIP
>>>-surface chemical changes which are
>>>>>> part and parcel of weathering.
>>>>>
>>>>>This is a metamorphic rock, such rocks are the product of pressure and
>>>>>temperature and are not particularily porous.
>>>>
>>>> But still, they are porous. Reagents will penetrate.
>>
>> See
>> http://www.springerlink.com/app/home/contribution.asp?wasp=3768ypvuqq5yxbg4wr8x&referrer=parent&backto=issue,24,88;journal,1,4;linkingpublicationresults,1:110353,1
>> for confirmation of the porosity of greywacke.
>
>You have so far failed to explain to me what you mean by the penetration of
>minerals.

Not surprising. I have never talked about 'the penetration of
minerals'. However I have talked about the penetration of reagents.

> If ion Y is present in a solution surrounding a sample at
>atmospheric pressure for 24 hours it will penetrate the cracks of a mineral
>in a very well known and understood way.

I've already explained to Martin Reboul that porosity/diffusoin is not
the same as finding the way through cracks, no matter how small the
cracks.

>Subject the treated rock to a pure
>water bath and it will reverse the transit of ion Y. This is called
>diffusion, it is well measured. If a rock is subjected to molar levels of an
>ion (as in 49 grams per liter of H2SO4 or sulphuric acid) for 24 hours, it
>will in turn see those entrained but unreacted molecules leach out in a week
>or so. Now bury the rock in Minnesota and let it see ten years of weather.

Somehow I think your thoughts are jumping around.
>
>>>
>>>
>>>Then do please give one example of a mineral known in the KRS, a reagent
>>>that will react with it, and the reaction product(s).
>>
>> Stop playing games. I've already told you I can't offer any specifics.
>> But are you saying there are minerals in the KRS which will not be
>> affected by chemical weathering?
>
>Bloody right. I've mined sapprolite ores (tropical weathering) that
>contained intact quartz veins and rocks after the rest of the mountain had
>(over 200 MY) been reduced to soft clays. Quartz is present in the KRS, and
>quartz is essentially inert. WTF do you think we make glassware out of it?

Yet another change of subject.
>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Many Egyptian carvings were
>>>>>done in similar rocks, you must be aware of how well preserved these can
>>>>>be.
>>>>
>>>> We are arguing enough about possible Viking artifacts in Minnesota. I
>>>> hope you are not suggesting the Egyptians left artifacts there also!
>>>
>>>Now you are being silly, there are no known Egyptian artifacts farther
>>>than
>>>200 km from the Atlantic ocean in North America.
>>
>> Z, please check your 'sense of humour' switch' I think somebody has
>> bumped it off.
>
>Are you now suggesting that there are known Egyptian relics on the Atlantic
>coast??? You suggest that I have no sense of humour? YOU DARE TO SUGGEST
>THAT?

PLEASE CHECK YOUR SENSE OF HUMOUR SWITCH!

Its been off for the last two interchanges.
>
>(Why?)
>
>>
>>>Last month I visited an
>>>exhibition of Egyptian artifacts (London museum) and looked closely at the
>>>weathering on them. Despite 4,000 years of thermal cycling and in some
>>>cases
>>>hundreds of rain events while burrried they for the most part look new.
>>>Egyptians deliberately chose greywacke for these carvings because of it's
>>>durability. The KRS has a curved back surface. That surface was once the
>>>exposed outcrop of a greywacke deposit before the glaciers sheared it off
>>>the bedrock (along the pre-existing fron surface fracture) and transported
>>>it hundreds of kilometers. Despite the grinding in the ice, thousands of
>>>winters since the ice age, etc, that surface is still smooth.
>>
>> Smooth only if you ignore 1 to 5mm deep glacial striations.
>
>Smooth surface straiations on the local level Eric! It's a lot like sex.
>Some English never do understand that, it's over their heads. But the
>Germans and French, they--- oh, never mind!

OK. It all depends what you mean by 'smooth'.
>
>
>>
>>>If it could be
>>>penetrated as easily as you seem to believe it would no longer be smooth,
>>>it
>>>would be a rough surface composed of discrete mineral grains.
>>
>> That the KRS has porosity does not mean that it is like a sponge.
>
>???? You are the spongebob guy Eric.

You don't understand, do you?
>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The minerals in greywacke decompose bu too slowly to date the KRS in
>>>>>most
>>>>>cases. A forger would like the biotite in it because it's easier to show
>>>>>aging using biotite than with most other minerals.
>>>>
>>>> Easier to fake also. But the other minerals remain.
>>>
>>>I said it's easier to fake biotite. For Pete's sake tell us what aging can
>>>happen on the other minerals present in the KRS at a fast enough rate to
>>>be
>>>a marker on a scale of 500 years.
>>
>> ... are you denying that there are any?
>
>Aggressive, accusatory words there Eric. What am I denying? I asked you to
>tell us what other minerals are present that can weather fast enough to show
>it, and you give us blanks.

I've already told you several times that is all I have to give.

However your challenge " For Pete's sake tell us what aging can happen
on the other minerals present in the KRS at a fast enough rate to be a
marker on a scale of 500 years" makes it sound as though you don't
believe there are any. That's whay I asked " ... are you denying that
there are any?" If you are not denying there are any, what are they?
[I don't know, I'm not the expert].

Eric Stevens

Relevant Pages

  • Re: KRS - artificial weathering
    ... Subject the treated rock to a pure ... >>Then do please give one example of a mineral known in the KRS, ... > But are you saying there are minerals in the KRS which will not be ... > affected by chemical weathering? ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: KRS - artificial weathering
    ... for confirmation of the porosity of greywacke. ... But are you saying there are minerals in the KRS which will not be ... there are no known Egyptian artifacts farther than ... But the other minerals remain. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: KRS - artificial weathering
    ... > on the other minerals present in the KRS at a fast enough rate to be a ... Of the various minerals present the carbonates are the softest chemically ... biotite and the carbonates would be the fastest ones. ... An acid allowed to soak ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: KRS - artificial weathering
    ... >> on the other minerals present in the KRS at a fast enough rate to be a ... >Of the various minerals present the carbonates are the softest chemically ... An acid allowed to soak ... Penetraion would only be by diffusion if there were no cracks ...
    (sci.archaeology)