Re: how do modern day egyptians feel about the ancient egyptians?
From: Yog-Sothoth (Allotrios_at_gmail.com)
Date: 09/27/04
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Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:56:53 +0100
Goat like "Tom McDonald" <tmcdonald2672@nohormelcharter.net> while
grazing in <10la0dd73f0f1e1@corp.supernews.com>, made the following
shapes:
> >> Nice straw men. "...it is harmful to have sex with someone who
> >>is not ready for it" is begging the question. Of course that is
> >>true. But you haven't demonstrated that all girls under the age
> >>of, say, 12 are not ready for it. As Katherine noted, at least
> >>some girls in ancient times reached menarche as early as age 7;
> >>and some 10-year-olds appear to have borne children.
> >
> >
> > I don't have to demonstrate that.
>
> You really aren't very good at this, are you?
Oh please, spare me the theatrics if you want me to take you
seriously. Of course I don't have to demonstrate it since Katherine
didn't demonstrate it either and it is her claim that is the wild
one, not mine. Now decide if you want to have a decent conversation
without sarcasm or you want to be ignored.
> Yes, you do have
> to demonstrate that. It is your contention, therefore your duty
> to support it.
Read above.
> And Katherine didn't bring any
> > evidence that there are girls at that age who are sexually mature.
>
> She mentioned facts that I know to be true from my own study.
What facts? Read again. She made a passing comment with no evidence
to support it. It was a wild claim. On the other hand, claiming that
the vast majority of girls do not enter puberty before the age of 10
is a fact, and if you feel that I am wrong, go ahead and show me a
paper that says otherwise. On top of that puberty may from one to six
to 6 years.
> > Yet you take her word for granted even though the vast
> majority of
> > girls at that age is definitely biologically not ready.
>
> I didn't take her word for it. I've studied the issue myself,
> in graduate work in both archaeology and psychotherapy. You
> yourself have backed off from your absolute stance, and now say
> 'the vast majority of girls at that age'. I assume we are
> talking about girls of 9 years old, but the facts support the
> occasional even younger girl being biologically ready for
> childbearing.
I have said that in maybe 1-2 girls out of a billion or even less. I
laugh at the prospect of Mohammed picking his baby bride out of these
odds .
> Even then, of course, we have not touched on the fact that all
> humans are sexual beings, from infancy. This is not to say that
> sexual _abuse_ by older persons is justified, but it is to say
> that the issue is more complex than you seem to allow.
It is not complex at all. It is harmful for the child both physically
and psychologically. If you did study "psychotherapy" as you claim
(odd, don't you have to study psychiatry/psychology for that first?),
you would know that and wouldn't be debating it.
> > So basically you tell me that sometimes (that be 1 out of 1 billion
> > probably) it is justified to have sex with a 9 year old. Well allow
> > me to laugh at the idea that Mohammed chose that girl at 6 because he
> > knew that at 9 she'd be mature.
>
> You are not paying attention. I am talking about both
> biological readiness and cultural norms regarding intercourse
> with young girls.
Even biological readiness comes much later than puberty.
Psychological readiness comes even later usually.
>
> The cultural norms you appear to be supporting draw a line at,
> what, 16 or 18 years of age, and declare that anyone younger
> than that age is out of bounds for sexual intercourse.
What cultural norms am I using? Where? I am starting to lose my
patience, and I am a really patient person. Stop insisting I stated
things that I haven't.
> This is
> true even though it is now extremely uncommon for girls to reach
> their menarche after 16. Most cultures that have ever existed
> would consider our norms silly, and even possibly dangerous to
> their society.
Girls nowadays enter puberty sooner than girls in the past. Maybe you
haven't studied the topic as hard as you think you have?
> >> That said, you sure can have your own standard, and may have
> >>the opinion you choose about those cultures that fall below that
> >>standard in your view. But no culture is required to consult
> >>with you or anyone else on their own standards.
> >
> >
> > Unless you display here evidence that a 9 year old can be BOTH
> > biologically and psychologically ready for sexual relations, your
> > point is moot. I strongly believe that even at 12, very few girls
> > reach maturity, and believe it or not, we haven't changed that much
> > in the past 1000 years.
>
> What evidence have you provided that 9 year olds can't be ready
> for sexual relations?
I have displayed medical evidence. You? Plus you seem to to confuse
reaching puberty with sexually maturing. You are not sexually matture
until AFTER the end of puberty.
> You raised the subject, you made the
> original contention, and so far you have not supported it with
> necessary and sufficient evidence. Instead, you assert your
> opinion as fact, and you produce evidence from one culture,
> modern Western culture, as though it had universal relevance.
Not a great attention span there, right? I have given links to pages
showing that child molestation is harmful. What have YOU given?
> And you are quite wrong about how much we have changed in the
> last 1000 years. At least in the industrialized world,
> improvements in nutrition in the last century have worked to
> lower the average age of menarche. An interesting site that
> gives information about this is:
>
> http://www.mum.org/menarage.htm
We haven't changed much. But hey, this would work to my advantage
too. It seems to claim, that at the time Mohammed raped that girl,
girls used to mature much later than what they do now. No?
> A chart on that page gives mean ages of menarche for various
> cities and countries around the world, information gathered
> between 1965 and 1985. The youngest age of menarche was among
> urban rich folks in Venezuela. It was 12.0 years of age. The
> highest was among the Bundi of New Guinea, at 18.0. Descendants
> of Europeans in the USA showed a mean age of 12.8 years, while
> descendants of Africans in the USA showed a mean age of 12.5
Again, you confuse menarche with sexual maturity (yes both physical
and psychological). They are not the same thing.
> I will only make the observation that the data presented above
> are mean ages, and therefore suggest that menarche among girls 9
> years of age is not as uncommon as you seem to think.
Well according to your data, it WAS back to the time Mohammed raped
that girl.
> > There is no question of it being rape or not, since at that age a
> > girl cannot be ready for it.
>
> Oh for God's sake. Your assertion, no matter how often you
> repeat it, is not evidence of anything except your personal
> beliefs.
I am not the one playing the wild odds here. You are. For the sake of
the child, nobody should assume she is mature at that age. You may
need to talk to someone about that.
> > I suggest you have a look at this:
> >
> > http://www.innocenceindanger.org/innocence/faq_clues.html#38
> >
> > And particularly:
> >
> > "2. Why are sexual relations with an adult traumatic for the child?
> >
> > The expectations of the paedophile and those of the child are not the
> > same. Even when the children may sometimes appear consenting, if not
> > indeed provocative, they are actually seeking attention and
> > affection. The paedophile responds with an adult sexuality which
> > children are not equipped to understand or cope with as an adult
> > does, and which can only be traumatic for them. Even when the sexual
> > relationship is not experienced as such when it occurs, it will be so
> > later in adolescence, when the child becomes aware of what he/she has
> > undergone."
>
> I know all of this far better than you.
Apparently you don't. Since you ve asked me to provide evidence for
that just in the top of this same post...
> I've dealt with
> victims of child sexual abuse in therapy, as well as their
> families and their abusers. Don't try to teach your granny to
> suck eggs, Yog.
Well it is only recent the example of a specialist on child support
and child molestation cases was proven to be a paedophile himself, so
according to your own logic (the one out of a billion can be the norm
defence), you may be a paedophile trying to justify your actions.
> What else I know is that the site you provided is useful only
> for cultures who hold to the general views about children's
> sexuality, and the nature of marriage, as we do. You don't seem
> to understand that projecting your, and my, views on this onto
> other cultures and other times is cultural chauvinism. It
> interferes with a real understanding of those cultures, and
> causes us to make mistakes.
So cultures have effects in the biological growth of children? And
you accuse *me* of chauvinism?
> In the world today, I submit that we, at least we Americans,
> can't afford to make any more mistakes in understanding cultures
> different from our own. We may feel all superior and virtuous
> comparing our values with those of others; but there can be an
> extremely heavy price to pay for that smug satisfaction.
> Learning about others is far more interesting and far better.
True, but as I said, there is nothing cultural with the fact that
having sex with a 9 year old girl is harmful to the girl. As I said,
the reason our culture bans it, is because of that fact. IT IS
HARMFUL FOR THE GIRL.
- Next message: Yog-Sothoth: "Re: how do modern day egyptians feel about the ancient egyptians?"
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- In reply to: Tom McDonald: "Re: how do modern day egyptians feel about the ancient egyptians?"
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