Re: how do modern day egyptians feel about the ancient egyptians?

From: Katherine Griffis-Greenberg (egylist_at_deadspamgriffis-consulting.com)
Date: 09/27/04 

Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:33:20 +0100

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:12:15 +0100, Yog-Sothoth <Allotrios@gmail.com>
in sci.archaeology, wrote the following:

>Goat like "Katherine Griffis-Greenberg" <egylist@deadspamgriffis-
>consulting.com> while grazing in
><qe4al0d3g3vqfh03i9k1ej8i07jvdo9m9v@4ax.com>, made the following
>shapes:
>> On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 02:20:57 +0100, Yog-Sothoth <Allotrios@gmail.com>
>> in sci.archaeology, wrote the following:
>>
>> When Tom McDonald wrote:
>>
>> >> Nice straw men. "...it is harmful to have sex with someone who
>> >> is not ready for it" is begging the question. Of course that is
>> >> true. But you haven't demonstrated that all girls under the age
>> >> of, say, 12 are not ready for it. As Katherine noted, at least
>> >> some girls in ancient times reached menarche as early as age 7;
>> >> and some 10-year-olds appear to have borne children.
>> >
>> >I don't have to demonstrate that. And Katherine didn't bring any
>> >evidence that there are girls at that age who are sexually mature.
>> >Yet you take her word for granted even though the vast majority of
>> >girls at that age is definitely biologically not ready.
>>
>> Uhm, onset of menarche is evidence of puberty, which is the sexual
>> maturation of a female for purposes of child-bearing. It is not the
>> _first_ sign of puberty, but often occurs after the secondary sexual
>> characteristics (breast enlargement, widening hips, formation of pubic
>> hair, etc.) has already taken place (Muscari, Faherty, et al. 1998: 8)
>> Just about any general medical information booklet will tell you this,
>> and all women know this as well. Don't know how much more plain than can
>> be as evidence of a female to is "biologically ready" for sexual
>> relations.
>
>Menarche is not the same as reaching physical and/or psychological
>sexual maturity. Sure it means a girl can conceive, but that's
>totally irrelevant to what we are talking here. Plus back at the time
>of Mohammed it was even more uncommon for girls to reach menarche
>before the age of 12.

And your proof for this is what? I have cited several articles which
show that menarche can occur earlier than 12 years of age, and when you
consider, as in the case of ancient Egypt, that the life span of the
average ancient Egyptian was usually no higher than about 30-35 years at
tops, the menarche and puberty will have to begin earlier than 12 years,
especially since the ancient Egyptian female breast-fed her child for 3
years after his/her birth (Janssen 1990). Now, since many Egyptian
women gave live birth about 7 times in their short lives (consider also
as much as a 40% mortality rate), then menarche and breeding would have
to have begun younger than 12 for this to occur.

A young age at menarche, before the age of 12 years, is still often the
case in such cultures as Bahrain,

http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/IES/bahrain.html

Saudi Arabia:

http://www.emro.who.int/Publications/EMHJ/0701/25.htm

while the median age of marriage in Ghana is 8 years of age:

http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/IES/ghana.html#0

even prepubescent marriages are authorised under modern Indian Hindu
culture:

http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/IES/india.html#0

>> >> Your second question is of the same nature, which you may
>> >> consider answered above.
>> >
>> >So basically you tell me that sometimes (that be 1 out of 1 billion
>> >probably) it is justified to have sex with a 9 year old. Well allow
>> >me to laugh at the idea that Mohammed chose that girl at 6 because he
>> >knew that at 9 she'd be mature.
>>
>> Tom, I suspect this poster has some ongoing fear of paedophiles that
>> doesn't allow him/her to see how sexual maturation differs among
>> cultures based upon both biological and social factors. If he/she can't
>> accept that (or is more intent on proving the "wrongness" of Mohamed or
>> Islam, for example), then there's no reasonable way to talk with him (or
>> her). That's the way I see it.
>
>LMAO. Nice troll bait.

Not a troll bait at all: it's just you refuse to consider the
possibility that menarche and cultural norms could have marriage and
sexual relations reasonably start before the age of 12 years of age,
particularly in pre-industrialised periods such as ancient Egypt and
Mohammedan periods in Saudi Arabia.

You have already proved MY point, IMO, by claiming that those who
disagree with your contention that 12 is the ONLY age in which
menarche/puberty occurs in ALL cultures as "pederasts."

>Maybe you should have a look at the links your Tom, provided, hon.
>Apparently back at the time of Mohammed, girls matured much later
>than they do now.

Somehow, "hon," I am not as impressed as you are by a statement in an
uncited "student essay" which is the _only one_ which stated an age for
the medieval Middle East. Present day and past studies on Islamic and
ancient cultures (in which I am more interested) indicate rather that
menarche, puberty and breeding ability could (and often did) take place
before the age of 12.

This age variation in menarche today is partially due to genetics, but
it is also affected by situational factors such as environment,
nutrition levels, the predictability of resources, levels of stress in
the family, and the quality of the relationship between the parents and
their daughter. In other words, social restraints and sub-texture also
have an effect on the onset of puberty: if the culture believes that a
person is "adult" at an age a western culture considers a "child," then
the body responds based upon genetic and cultural cues.

As Lynn Meskell noted, in discussing the maturation of females in
ancient Egypt during the New Kingdom:

"...We might adduce that for young women, the progression of life might
not have been as distinct as it was for their male counterparts. I have
argued that girls were depicted in both iconography and material culture
as sexual beings from an early age onwards. There is a whole corpus of
artifacts representing adolescent girls, some still having the shaved
head of childhood, in a nude or seminude state replete with the erotic
signifiers of lotus flowers, hip girdles, ducks (Derchain 1975: 62; see
Figure 3.12), and musical instruments. Very young women were sexualized,
and images of them appeared on toiletry objects, such as spoons,
mirrors, bowls, and combs (Robins 1996; see Chapters 5 and 6). All such
imagery was loaded with obvious sexual overtones to an Egyptian viewer.
The discursive creation of 'childhood' as a sanctified category or
desexualized sphere, separate from the overtones of adult life, is
relatively recent (Foucault 1978: 47). I would therefore suggest that
the female life cycle was less marked than one might expect and that
their sexual and social roles began quite early in life. Young men may
have experienced more marked transitions, moving from the domestic
sphere of their mothers to the world of work. It also seems likely that
girls were much younger at the point of 'marriage' than boys, creating
different social expectations of the sexes and their life trajectories."
(Meskell 2002: 89-90)

However, it appears you are too consumed with the idea that cultural
norms have no biological impact, when just the opposite can be shown
across the literature.

References:

Janssen, R. M. and J. J. Janssen 1990. _Growing Up in Ancient Egypt_.
London: Rubicon Press.

Meskell, L. 2002. _Private Life in the New Kingdom_. Princeton:
Princeton University Press.

Done. 

--
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon)
Member, International Association of Egyptologists
       American Research Center in Egypt, ASOR, EES, SSEA
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies Doctoral Program [Egyptology]
University of Oxford
Oxford, United Kingdom
http://www.griffis-consulting.com

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