Re: how do modern day egyptians feel about the ancient egyptians?

From: Agamemnon (agamemnon_at_hello.to.NO_SPAM)
Date: 09/28/04 

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:53:21 +0100

"Katherine Griffis-Greenberg" <egylist@deadspamgriffis-consulting.com> wrote
in message news:v9tgl0hrhviv8ootvlpjrehqdehj6c81el@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:12:15 +0100, Yog-Sothoth <Allotrios@gmail.com>
> in sci.archaeology, wrote the following:
>
>>Goat like "Katherine Griffis-Greenberg" <egylist@deadspamgriffis-
>>consulting.com> while grazing in
>><qe4al0d3g3vqfh03i9k1ej8i07jvdo9m9v@4ax.com>, made the following
>>shapes:
>>> On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 02:20:57 +0100, Yog-Sothoth <Allotrios@gmail.com>
>>> in sci.archaeology, wrote the following:
>>>
>>> When Tom McDonald wrote:
>>>
>>> >> Nice straw men. "...it is harmful to have sex with someone who
>>> >> is not ready for it" is begging the question. Of course that is
>>> >> true. But you haven't demonstrated that all girls under the age
>>> >> of, say, 12 are not ready for it. As Katherine noted, at least
>>> >> some girls in ancient times reached menarche as early as age 7;
>>> >> and some 10-year-olds appear to have borne children.
>>> >
>>> >I don't have to demonstrate that. And Katherine didn't bring any
>>> >evidence that there are girls at that age who are sexually mature.
>>> >Yet you take her word for granted even though the vast majority of
>>> >girls at that age is definitely biologically not ready.
>>>
>>> Uhm, onset of menarche is evidence of puberty, which is the sexual
>>> maturation of a female for purposes of child-bearing. It is not the
>>> _first_ sign of puberty, but often occurs after the secondary sexual
>>> characteristics (breast enlargement, widening hips, formation of pubic
>>> hair, etc.) has already taken place (Muscari, Faherty, et al. 1998: 8)
>>> Just about any general medical information booklet will tell you this,
>>> and all women know this as well. Don't know how much more plain than can
>>> be as evidence of a female to is "biologically ready" for sexual
>>> relations.
>>
>>Menarche is not the same as reaching physical and/or psychological
>>sexual maturity. Sure it means a girl can conceive, but that's
>>totally irrelevant to what we are talking here. Plus back at the time
>>of Mohammed it was even more uncommon for girls to reach menarche
>>before the age of 12.
>
> And your proof for this is what? I have cited several articles which
> show that menarche can occur earlier than 12 years of age, and when you
> consider, as in the case of ancient Egypt, that the life span of the
> average ancient Egyptian was usually no higher than about 30-35 years at

That is rubbish. There are dozens of Pharaohs mummies that show that the
Pharaoh was over 70 years old. If you stayed out of battle you could live to
be 80 or 90 and that means most women would have lived well into old age.
There was MNO reason whatseover for them to marry young. Further more cult
prostitution was rife in places such as Babylon so there was no shortage of
fathers and NO reason for a woman to marry under age (16).

> tops, the menarche and puberty will have to begin earlier than 12 years,
> especially since the ancient Egyptian female breast-fed her child for 3
> years after his/her birth (Janssen 1990). Now, since many Egyptian
> women gave live birth about 7 times in their short lives (consider also

Long lives. They could have been centurions even.

> as much as a 40% mortality rate), then menarche and breeding would have
> to have begun younger than 12 for this to occur.

Mortality rate has noting to do with it since that is mostly affected by
infant deaths rather than adult ones. Supply the raw statistics if you think
otherwise, and I doubt the ancient Egyptian kept such records anyway.

>
> A young age at menarche, before the age of 12 years, is still often the
> case in such cultures as Bahrain,
>
> http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/IES/bahrain.html
>
> Saudi Arabia:
>
> http://www.emro.who.int/Publications/EMHJ/0701/25.htm
>
> while the median age of marriage in Ghana is 8 years of age:

PERVERTS !

These child molesters should be wiped out.

>
> http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/IES/ghana.html#0
>
> even prepubescent marriages are authorised under modern Indian Hindu
> culture:

PERVERTS !

These child molesters cannot be tolerated.

I will never give any money to ant charities that give aid to Africa and
India ever again.

>
> http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/IES/india.html#0
>
>>> >> Your second question is of the same nature, which you may
>>> >> consider answered above.
>>> >
>>> >So basically you tell me that sometimes (that be 1 out of 1 billion
>>> >probably) it is justified to have sex with a 9 year old. Well allow
>>> >me to laugh at the idea that Mohammed chose that girl at 6 because he
>>> >knew that at 9 she'd be mature.
>>>
>>> Tom, I suspect this poster has some ongoing fear of paedophiles that
>>> doesn't allow him/her to see how sexual maturation differs among
>>> cultures based upon both biological and social factors. If he/she can't
>>> accept that (or is more intent on proving the "wrongness" of Mohamed or
>>> Islam, for example), then there's no reasonable way to talk with him (or
>>> her). That's the way I see it.
>>
>>LMAO. Nice troll bait.
>
> Not a troll bait at all: it's just you refuse to consider the
> possibility that menarche and cultural norms could have marriage and
> sexual relations reasonably start before the age of 12 years of age,
> particularly in pre-industrialised periods such as ancient Egypt and
> Mohammedan periods in Saudi Arabia.
>
> You have already proved MY point, IMO, by claiming that those who
> disagree with your contention that 12 is the ONLY age in which
> menarche/puberty occurs in ALL cultures as "pederasts."

Tell me since when has puberty meant that you are sexually mature. How many
viable sperm can a male produce with only 3 public hairs. You need to be
something like 14 or 15 to produce viable sperm. On top of that since when
can an 9 year old girl bear children. The baby would not even be able to
exit her body. The only reason for a marriage to an underage child is for
political NOT biological or demographic reasons and there is NO EXCURSE for
sex with that child for any reason.

>
>>Maybe you should have a look at the links your Tom, provided, hon.
>>Apparently back at the time of Mohammed, girls matured much later
>>than they do now.
>
> Somehow, "hon," I am not as impressed as you are by a statement in an
> uncited "student essay" which is the _only one_ which stated an age for
> the medieval Middle East. Present day and past studies on Islamic and
> ancient cultures (in which I am more interested) indicate rather that
> menarche, puberty and breeding ability could (and often did) take place
> before the age of 12.

PROVE IT !

>
> This age variation in menarche today is partially due to genetics, but
> it is also affected by situational factors such as environment,
> nutrition levels, the predictability of resources, levels of stress in
> the family, and the quality of the relationship between the parents and
> their daughter. In other words, social restraints and sub-texture also
> have an effect on the onset of puberty: if the culture believes that a
> person is "adult" at an age a western culture considers a "child," then
> the body responds based upon genetic and cultural cues.

Rubbish. If that were true then it would be happening all over Africa and
India. The fact is that it isn't. None of these PERVERTED marriages produce
any viable offspring.

>
> As Lynn Meskell noted, in discussing the maturation of females in
> ancient Egypt during the New Kingdom:
>
> "...We might adduce that for young women, the progression of life might
> not have been as distinct as it was for their male counterparts. I have
> argued that girls were depicted in both iconography and material culture
> as sexual beings from an early age onwards. There is a whole corpus of
> artifacts representing adolescent girls, some still having the shaved
> head of childhood, in a nude or seminude state replete with the erotic
> signifiers of lotus flowers, hip girdles, ducks (Derchain 1975: 62; see
> Figure 3.12), and musical instruments. Very young women were sexualized,
> and images of them appeared on toiletry objects, such as spoons,
> mirrors, bowls, and combs (Robins 1996; see Chapters 5 and 6). All such

PROVE IT. Prove they were young girls.

> imagery was loaded with obvious sexual overtones to an Egyptian viewer.
> The discursive creation of 'childhood' as a sanctified category or
> desexualized sphere, separate from the overtones of adult life, is
> relatively recent (Foucault 1978: 47). I would therefore suggest that
> the female life cycle was less marked than one might expect and that
> their sexual and social roles began quite early in life. Young men may
> have experienced more marked transitions, moving from the domestic
> sphere of their mothers to the world of work. It also seems likely that
> girls were much younger at the point of 'marriage' than boys, creating
> different social expectations of the sexes and their life trajectories."
> (Meskell 2002: 89-90)
>
> However, it appears you are too consumed with the idea that cultural
> norms have no biological impact, when just the opposite can be shown
> across the literature.
>
> References:
>
> Janssen, R. M. and J. J. Janssen 1990. _Growing Up in Ancient Egypt_.
> London: Rubicon Press.
>
> Meskell, L. 2002. _Private Life in the New Kingdom_. Princeton:
> Princeton University Press.
>
> Done.

A BUNCH OF CHILD MOLESTERS the lot of them.

When Theseus tried to abduct Helen when she was 12 and he was 50 to marry
her when she was 16 he was driven out of Athens into Hades and his mother
was taken captive by Helens brothers when they rescued her. It is clear from
this and from Hesiods Works and Days and the situation surrounding his death
that marriage below the age of 16 was forbidden since Mycenaean times and
sex with a minor was certainly outlawed on pain of death. That is what is
called moral and it was called moral for over 3200 years. There is no excuse
for tolerating an inferior culture that refuses to abide by this moral code
because it has been shown to be right by example. If the Greeks can live by
it then so can everyone.

>
> --
> Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon)
> Member, International Association of Egyptologists
> American Research Center in Egypt, ASOR, EES, SSEA
>
> Oriental Institute
> Oriental Studies Doctoral Program [Egyptology]
> University of Oxford
> Oxford, United Kingdom
>
> http://www.griffis-consulting.com

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