Re: answer to kenney former Re: Spirit Pond, Maine

From: Doug Weller (dweller_at_ramtops.thisremove.co.uk)
Date: 10/15/04 

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 17:01:31 +0100

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 05:03:58 GMT, I_ E. Johansson wrote:

> Doug,
> once again you deliberatly try to misunderstand my lines.

That's nonsense. I don't think I misunderstood them, and your comments
about deliberate misunderstanding are more or less a claim to be able to
read your mind.

> How can you? I gave you the definition that is the only one that is valid
> for late antiquity. Observe not 'my' definition but the definition that is

AH, that's what upset you, I wrote 'your definition'. But it was your
definition, you didn't give anyone or anything else credit.

> the one you learn if you study History, Geography(Cultural Geography
> included), Religion, Political Science and more - that's the one which is
> valid. I asked in a maybe hush words, which I didn't intend, that you may
> not have read Tacitus and so on. That was not to start a discussion - the
> simple fact is that if you had read the refered Historians and if you had
> read King Alfred's Orosius and Adam of Bremen, you would have known the
> definition by heart. The two later we discussed before so I at least
> presumed you had read them.
> You had reacted to my Gothia refererens. Thus I gave the Gothia definition
> which btw - still exist to this day no matter that later landareas which at
> that time wasn't owned by a Swedish tribe have been included.
>
> As for countries I take it that you at least must be aware of when Denmark
> resp Norway was united. Sweden, this is something that many scholars miss
> also Swedish scholars - were a country where the King (even after we can
> prove Historic Kings) was more of a warleader up to Magnus Ladulås or maybe
> Magnus Eriksson's days. Some tries to make believe that the Swedish King's
> 'Svea, Göthes och Vendes konung' which existed up to the latest constitution
> meant Svealand, Götaland and the Vend known after Medieval Age in northern
> Germany-Poland area. That's not correct. If you carefully read and valuate
> written sources up to Gustav Vasa you will learn that Vend was the northern
> part of Sweden, Kvenland and also a majority of northern Finland was
> included in this Kvenland.
>
> If you look at maps up to 1700 you also will find that the old Kven/Vend
> definition include the Kvens/Vends territory down to northern Estonia.
>
> Before Magnus Eriksson's landslag we here in Sweden had 'landskapslagar' ~
> Provincial laws. One of the major differences was that a King had to be
> accepted by each Province. That was so up to Gustav Vasa's days(king
> 1521-1560). Thus one can't use England's definition for England as a country
> everywhere - we can't assume that a warleader, a King or anyone alike had
> same responsibility and same rights everywhere as in England, France or for
> that matter in the Roman Empire.
>
> But the definition you assume is mine is the officially used definition for
> a country anywhere in the world.

Um, where did 'country' come into this discussion? Nation and country
aren't the same thing, check your Oxford dictionary. A country can contain
several nations, for a start. And so far as I know, the only valid
official definition of country is that of the UN, if it has one, but any
definition (outside of the way the UK uses the word) would, I'd guess,
include full sovereignty. (So, as in another thread, there are Indian
nations in the US and Canada but not Indian countries).

But my main point is that it is non-academic to have the discussion you
were having with Seppo without agreeing on terminology.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with archaeology.

Doug

> Inger E
>
> "Doug Weller" <dweller@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
> news:1pvfl360cfn0t.y72iavkaefmf$.dlg@40tude.net...
>> On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 16:23:15 GMT, I_ E. Johansson wrote:
>>
>>> "Doug Weller" <dweller@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
>>> news:56ya9nfhyog6.iw31dmv44xl5$.dlg@40tude.net...
>>>> On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 05:15:52 GMT, I_ E. Johansson wrote:
>>>> [SNIP]
>>>>> On the contrary Seppo. There existed ethnic groups which acted as
>>> Nations.
>>>>> Here in Scandinavia we do have one advantage which many forgets and
> that
>>> is
>>>>> that there exists written documentation from visitors, among them Dio
>>> 1st
>>>>> century AD. You know about Jordanes Dio? Did you know that he wrote
>>> about
>>>>> his visit in the island(!?) Geata up in the Northern Ocean. His book
>>> about
>>>>> the goths is gone but more than 50 of his speaches where he spoke of
> it
>>>>> still exists. Or how about Ptolomy's map. I am not talking about the
>>> version
>>>>> preserved in west but the version preserved in Asia Minor and used by
>>> many
>>>>> Arabic Carthographs up to 1000 AD? Wigotha Elf - yes that's what it
>>> say....
>>>>> Or how about written documentation from Tacitus up to Cassiodorus?
> Don't
>>>>> make a mistake while we can't prove that the Kvens, who up to 800 AD
> was
>>>>> known as merchandisers, to have been looking upon themselves as a
>>> National
>>>>> unite we do have a lot more written documentation to prove that they
>>> aren't
>>>>> and never were Finns. We also have a lot of documentation proving that
>>> the
>>>>> ethnic group of Finns didn't move into today's Finland before 550 AD.
>>> Most
>>>>> part of todays Finland had kvens and no Finnish speaking person before
>>> late
>>>>> Medieval Age or later. You see one thing about Swedes which most
> forgets
>>> is
>>>>> that we Swedes were exemplaric(?) to say the least to register
>>> settlements
>>>>> and new settlers in Finland from Birger Jarl's days on forward.
>>>>
>>>> You need to define what you mean as nations before you can have this
>>>> discussion sensibly.
>>>
>>> Major ethnic group of people who call themselves or are called by others
>>> with a certain name and who at least in wartime have their chosen leader
> to
>>> follow. They needn't be on leader for the group in peace time. As for
> the
>>> Goths there were many local leaders when they weren't fighting.
>>> I take it that you either forgotten or haven't read Caesar, Tacitus, Dio
> C
>>> nor any of the sofists?
>>
>> I don't see the relevance of your question to mine, which was simply
> asking
>> you your definition of a nation. You've provided your definition. I'm not
>> trying to discuss nations in late antiquity myself.
>>
>> Doug

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