Re: 7-Foot Robot Used in Black Sea Expedition

From: Polik (polik_at_rogers.com)
Date: 11/03/04 

Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:51:58 -0500

"Franz Gnaedinger" <frgn@bluemail.ch> wrote in message
news:2bf25455.0411022354.52fba674@posting.google.com...
> frgn@bluemail.ch (Franz Gnaedinger) wrote in message
> news:<2bf25455.0411012355.3e66eff4@posting.google.com>...
>
> Peter T. Daniels: you make me loose my former respect for you.
> I got about a dozen replies from you, and twice you forgot what
> you had written and were amazed at my reply. And now you pass on
> to deliberate insincerity by snipping a sentence of mine in the
> middle of it. I wrote: "Eve took a bite from an apple: apples
> came from Persia, and if it was another fruit it may nevertheless
> have grown on a cultivated tree." Snipping the crucial second part
> of my sentence IS insincere, and know that it was them snipping
> edus that made me post the way I do. I know well that the fruit
> involved was not an apple, yet it is called an apple, and was
> called an apple in almost all translations of the Bible, which
> is a relevant fact for me when pondering the question about the
> reliability of scriptural traditions: there is always a way to
> convey the original meaning, even by wrong translations! They
> are wrong on the surface, but keep a deeper level of truth.

Interestingly enough, the Hungarian word for "tomato" is the same as that
for "paradise" , namely "paradicsom", arising from an early belief that the
fruit of which Eve ate was, in fact, a tomato.

Equally interesting, the word appears to be a loan from some Iranian
language although tomatoes are indisputably New World fruit.

In any event, the fruit was not called an apple anywhere in the Genesis.
The representation of the fruit of the tree as an apple is a later European
invention.

Polik.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> In my previous messages I linked the story of Adam and Eve to
> early agriculture, and Noah's Ark to any enclosure built on
> an eminence, and every tell in Mesopotamia whereon the dwellers
> of a river plain found shelter from rising waters or attacking
> enemies.
>
> Now for a hypothetical flood scenario.
>
> Jim Teller believes that an outflow of the huge sweet water
> lake Agassiz 8,400 years ago caused a flooding of the shallow
> Persian gulf, while Ryan (2003) dates the hypothetical Black
> Sea infill to the same time, 8400 BP or 6400 BC. A week ago
> I read in the scientific section of a newspaper that a heavy
> flood can trigger an earthquake. Let me assume the rising
> level of the Sea of Marmara caused an earthquake in the region
> of the Bosporus, whereupon the hypothetical dam gave in, say,
> to the left and the right side of a large central rock:
>
>
> d d d d d r r r d d d d d
> d d d d r r r r d d d d
> d d d r r r r r d d d
> d d r r r r d d
>
> d = land, left and right of the Bosporus, going over into
> the hypothetical Bosporuas dam; r = central rock of the dam;
> free spaces d r and r d = waterfalls
>
> The central rock would have been commemorated first in wooden
> reliefs of the Goddess of the Water Tresses, then on vessels
> from Old Europe showing the same Goddess of the Water Plaits,
> and finally as Medusa whose hairs have been snakes that would
> again symbolize water -- rushing water in freightening masses.
>
> Sonner or later the central rock would have given in, releasing
> a first flood triggering a heavy earthquake somewhere on the
> southern shore of the Black Sea that would have sent a floodwave
> across the Pontos.
>
> Now if the outflow of lake Agassiz caused a flooding of the
> shallow Persian Gulf, and then, indirectly, the infill of the
> Black Sea 8,400 years ago -- could this have been Noah's Flood?
>
> No, since nobody lived on the shores of the Persian Gulf in
> that period of time (as far as I know), and there were only
> hunters and gatherers wandering along the shores of the Black
> Sea - no settlements of early farmers and ainmal breeders.
>
> However, the hypothetical Black Sea infill could have been
> commemorated otherwise. More next time.
>
> Regards Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch
>
>
>
>> The story of Adam and Eve (Genesis II+III) refers, I believe,
>> to the origin of agriculture. Eve took a bite from an apple:
>> apples came from Persia, and if it was another fruit it may
>> nevertheless have grown on a cultivated tree. It was Eve who
>> took the first bite from the apple: women played a major role
>> in early agriculture, which is proved by vessels and figurines
>> from Old Europe. Adam was made of clay: early agriculture goes
>> along with clay figurines and vessels. Adam and Eve had been
>> expelled from the paradise and were obliged to a hard working
>> life: while the hunters and gatherers spent just a couple of
>> hours a day for catching, collecting and preparing their food,
>> agriculture is hard word. The apple had grown on the Tree of
>> Wisdom: agriculture asked for the irrigation of the fields,
>> which required cooperation, led to nation forming and gave rise
>> to the sciences in Egypt, Mesopotamia, India and China. Now for
>> the Snake, which played an intriguing role. Snakes, I believe,
>> had to do with water and were often used as symbols for rivers.
>> The Snake in the Genesis lived in the Garden of Eden, which,
>> as I take it, was distinct from Eden itself. There was a river
>> in Eden, while no rain fell on earth, instead "a mist rose from
>> the earth and watered the whole face of the ground." The Snake
>> in the Bible has four heads, while the Snake on the 'Adam and
>> Eve' cylinder seal impression from the Ziqqurat of Unug/Uruk
>> stands on the ground and reaches heaven with her head. By
>> combining all this I came to the following conclusions: Eden
>> was Heaven; the river of Eden were the clouds; the Garden of
>> Eden was the Earth, more specific northern Africa, Near East,
>> India and China; the Snake drank water from the clouds and then
>> sprinkled it gently over those regions with her four mouths ...
>> Yet as the early farmers cut down so many trees, desertation
>> set in and made the rivers rise and flood the wide open plains,
>> while intensive irrigation, as practized in southern Mesopotamia,
>> caused salification. In other words: early farming led to the
>> expulsion from the paradise. The Snake was no longer allowed to
>> drink from the heavenly water - from the clouds -, instead it was
>> forced to eat dust - to flow through wide expanses of dry land ...
>>
>> This message may complete the one from yesterday. I don't yet
>> succeed in reconstructing the 'Adam and Eve' story as it might
>> have been told in Sumer, but perhaps a reader will?
>>
>> Regards Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch
>>
>>
>>
>> > A roll seal impression found on the Ziqqurat of Unug Uruk Erech
>> > Orchoe Warka shows a man, behind him a woman, and an amazing
>> > variety of animals, among them, most prominently, a large snake,
>> > her tail on the earth, her head reaching heaven:
>> >
>> > o o o o o o o o o o o o o o
>> > o S o
>> > o s o
>> > o W M s o
>> > o w m s o
>> > o w m s o
>> > o w m s o
>> > o w m s o
>> > o w m s o
>> > o o o o o o o o o o o o o o
>> >
>> > First I thought of Noah and his wife, then of Adam and Eve.
>> > Snakes were a common symbol for rivers. The Dnjeper was called
>> > Virgin Snake, and the river upon which I live, the Limmat, was
>> > originally called Linda Magos, Big Snake. so the snake in the
>> > above seal impression and in the Bible might well be a river.
>> >
>> > The Snake tempted Eve with an apple from the forbidden Tree
>> > of Wisdom. Eve took a bite and made Adam eat the rest, whereupon
>> > they were expelled from the Paradise and forced to earn their
>> > living by means of hard work. The Snake was from now on creeping
>> > through dust, and there was fiendship between her and the woman
>> > and their offspring.
>> >
>> > If Eden was Heaven, the Garden of Eden was the Earth, more
>> > precisely northern Africa, Mesopotamia, India and China. The
>> > river of Eden were the clouds, from which the Snake would drink
>> > with her four heads and then water the ground. Genesis III 6:
>> > "But there went up a mist from the earth and watered the whole
>> > face of the ground" and made all kinds of trees grow whose fruit
>> > nourished the people. Eve taking a bite from the apple from the
>> > Tree of Wisdom may hint at the transition from gathering wild
>> > fruit and cereals to agriculture, which required the irrigation
>> > of fields by means of canals, or, if you like, small snakes.
>> > Enki, the Sumerian god of water, was also the god of wisdom,
>> > and it was by irrigating fields that the first nations formed
>> > and the sciences came into life: in Egypt, Mesopotamia, India
>> > and China. Not being content with what was given by God but
>> > asking for more and trying to change nature for that purpose
>> > was seen as an act of greed and hybris, and was penaltied by
>> > the exclusion from Paradise: no more mist rose from earth, the
>> > springs dried up, rain fell on some places, leaving out other
>> > places, and the water was from now on flowing along the ground
>> > = creeping through dust like a snake, and men were forced to
>> > do hard work, building and repairing dams, ditching and cleaning
>> > canals, averting rivers, using them for all kinds of purposes,
>> > while the rivers menaced the people with periodic floodings and
>> > all kinds of dangerous animals they breeded: insects, crocodiles,
>> > hippopotames, and watersnakes ...
>> >
>> > If understood like this, the story of Adam and Eve and the Snake
>> > would allude to historical facts: a) women played an important
>> > role in early agriculture including the irrigation of fields;
>> > b) the early farmers contributed to the desertification, namely
>> > by the large amount of trees they cut down for building houses,
>> > fences, dams, boats, making fire, burning bricks, and so on,
>> > and when the trees - which are so fundamental to the Garden
>> > of Eden - are gone, the srpings dry up, the rain ceases to fall,
>> > whereupon desertification sets in, giving raise to heavy floods;
>> > and c) the intensive irrigation of Mesopotamia led to salification
>> > of the once fertile river plains.
>> >
>> >
>> > Regards Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > Good news: the archaic sign for Unug is basically the same as
>> > > the cuneiform sign for Uruk in the Gilgamesh epic. The most
>> > > explicit versions in the Heidelberg collection are on W 21878
>> > > from Uruk III, found in a stamped wall; and on W 19635 b, found
>> > > 40 centimeters below ground level. The signs on these tablets
>> > > are composed of a small and a large symmetrical trapezoid each
>> > > that narrow toward their meeting line. Follows a much enlarged
>> > > ASCII version of the trapezoids on the small tablet W 19635 (b):
>> > >
>> > > E
>> > > A
>> > > D
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > C
>> > > B
>> > > F
>> > >
>> > > Small enclosure ABCD, large enclosure CDEF, meeting line CD.
>> > > Incised in the large enclosure is a loose chevron pattern of
>> > > 2 plus 3 plus 3 short lines (from left to right), representing
>> > > as many cattle.
>> > >
>> > > The trapezoids on the larger tablet W 21878 are longer and narrower,
>> > > and the loose chevron pattern is composed of 2 plus 4 plus 4 plus 5
>> > > short lines or animals.
>> > >
>> > > On other tablets, the small enclosure can be a rectangle, while
>> > > the large one is always a trapezoid, but sometimes very short,
>> > > depending on the drawing/writing space on a tablet. If the large
>> > > enclosure is short, the animals can also be given as horizontal
>> > > lines, all of them parallel, or as oblique lines, parallel again.
>> > > Or they can be altogether omitted.
>> > >
>> > > The archaic sign for Unug would again be the ark: an enclosure on
>> > > an eminence, where people and animals found shelter --- people,
>> > > food and fodder in the small enclosure, a hut and stable; animals
>> > > in the large enclosure. It would be Noah's Ark reduced to its
>> > > historical core. Every elevated cattle enclosure and every tell
>> > > in the river plains of Mesopotamia would have been an ark, but
>> > > Unug Uruk Erech Orchoe (the latter version is Greek) was special
>> > > as Uruk had obviously been famous for the number, and, we may infer,
>> > > also for the quality of their cattle, and really must have deserved
>> > > the standing formula "Erech of the (cattle) enclosure" (R. Campbell
>> > > Thompson) in the Gilgamesh epic.
>> > >
>> > > Jim Teller of Manitoba University believes that an outpouring of
>> > > the giant sweet water lake Agassiz caused a flooding of the shallow
>> > > Persian Gulf and forced the dwellers along the shores to receed by
>> > > several kilometers per annum. This would have happened 8,400 years
>> > > ago (Ryan dates the hypothetical Black Sea infill to the same time,
>> > > 8400 BP or 6400 BC). If so, the early settlers in southern
>> > > Mesopotamia
>> > > could well have chosen the region of Kuballa and Eanna, later to
>> > > become
>> > > Unug / Uruk, as their new settlement area ...
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Next time: Adam, Eve, and the snake

Relevant Pages

  • Re: 7-Foot Robot Used in Black Sea Expedition
    ... I know well that the fruit ... > involved was not an apple, yet it is called an apple, and was ... > reliefs of the Goddess of the Water Tresses, ... >> the Snake, ...
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  • Re: Bible Hebrew question
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  • Re: Bible Hebrew question
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  • Re: 7-Foot Robot Used in Black Sea Expedition
    ... I wrote: "Eve took a bite from an apple: apples ... In my previous messages I linked the story of Adam and Eve to ... > the Snake, ... There was a river ...
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  • Re: 7-Foot Robot Used in Black Sea Expedition
    ... I wrote: "Eve took a bite from an apple: apples ... In my previous messages I linked the story of Adam and Eve to ... > the Snake, ... There was a river ...
    (sci.lang)