Re: Answer to Martin R regarding AVM on KRS

From: Alan Crozier (alan.crazier_at_telia.com)
Date: 12/18/04 

Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 12:56:29 GMT

"I.E_Johansson" <inger_e.johansson@telia.com> wrote in message
news:VXTwd.11433$d5.100179@newsb.telia.net...
>
> "Doug Weller" <dweller@ramtops.removethisdemon.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
> news:6cl7s0tggqaa430gqcv18jg8elbsimnpo9@4ax.com...
> > On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 19:25:56 -0000, in sci.archaeology, David B. wrote:
> >
> > >Martin Reboul wrote in message
<7pFwd.190$mj4.45@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>...
> > >>
> > >>"I.E_Johansson" <inger_e.johansson@telia.com> wrote in message
> > >>>
> > >>> The Grey Friars used AV respectivel M for Ave Maria in 13th and 14th
> > >>> century and those abbrevations were not only common but known long
> > >before
> > >>> the Freemasons of C19 had been born. The usuage of AVM without a
space
> > >>> between V and M goes back long before C19 as well.
> > >>
> > >>Comments Martin R: AV is not AVM.
> > >
> > >To clarify: " av' " and " M. " are two different types of abbreviation
> The
> > >first is more a kind of speed-writing, indicating a common letter or
(as
> in
> > >this case) a common Latin ending, with a quick mark. The second is an
> > >initial-letter abbreviation; for combinations meaning "Ave Maria" one
> would
> > >expect either something like AV' M'RI' in the first system, or simply
> A.M.
> > >in the second.
> > >
> > >>Have you any reference to any document from the 14th century
> specifically
> > >using
> > >>the letters 'AVM' to represent 'Ave Maria'?
> > >
> > >Well Inger, have you? What's the oldest you can quote in context?
> >
> > Didn't she say something about unique occurrences? Which is a nice
getout.
>
> Doug,
> AV followed by M is correct no matter what David B seem to believe. Some
> today try to make believe that all changes in how to write abbrevations
and
> how to spell happened during a very short period. That's not the case. For
> abbrevations in the period when Latin came to be less used then before
there
> are many mixes of 'rules'. Not as easily dismissed as David B assume. Does
> there exist a 'AV' followed by an 'M'? yes it does. I don't have exact
> dating nor can I say if there is or isn't a small space in between of the
> 'AV' and the 'M'. I haven't checked the original myself. that's not my
> 'plate' to put on the table.)

But you told me that you had no examples. Have you discovered one since
Tuesday?

Alan 

-- 
Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden

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