Asian Expansions and Peruvian Food Culture

From: Philip Deitiker (Donevenask_at_worlnet.att.net)
Date: 12/25/04 

Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 17:57:37 GMT

kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk says in
news:cqjgpf$5rj$1@thorium.cix.co.uk:

> In article <v48ms0l2082up2vlkh7g7j2r50jr7o1p3v@4ax.com>,
> eric.stevens@jetbuster.co.nz (Eric Stevens) wrote:
>
> Quoted from Athy
>
>> At about the time of the birth of Christ, the Romans arrived
>> and introduced the concepts of firing bricks, making fired clay
>> drain tiles,
>
> Now it is just possible that there was Egyptian and Chinese
> contact,
> though all the evidence indicates that Egyptians were not noted
> for building ocean going ships.

What Athy was specifically hitting at was Egytians that traveled
across the Atlantic, educated the protoOlmecs in all things 'worthy'
and that they came and went at there will on several occasions.

There is no evidence that the Chinese traveled to the New World.
What seems might be more likely it that one of the groups of people
china kicked out during the early northerly expansion might have made
it to the New World.

I have no idea what his opinions were on china. From the point of
view of HLA, early Han expansionism may have played a role in the
resulting expansion of Polynesian culture, and this potentially made
it to the New World within the last 1500 years.
  There is an obvious expansion within the wet rice farming peoples,
and a picture is coalescing that H/G tribes northern china may have
been pushed into Mongolia and beyond. This motion itself may have
pushed other groups. There is for instance a west asia component
within Inuit HLA which is under notable linkage disequilibration, 3
haplotypes appear to be recently admixed in. There are also the major
haplotypes of the Tlinglet that appear to have come from regions
proximal to the Amur river. This seems odd, but B46 haplotype was
found in the Ninhvet which is well outside of the cluster it
typically is associated with suggesting that chinese at some point
expanded into the H/G peoples along Japan Seas western coast.
  There is also evidence that the Tlinglet like patterns, a fraction,
expanded rapidly along the western coast, and potentially might have
enfluenced mesoamerican or andean culture.
  The genetic input into the Inuit, and the migrations of the
Tlinglet however appear to be less than 3000 years in age. Whereas
this city is apparently 5200 years in age. If we use Japan a sensor
of what forces are going on in asia, it now appears that colonizing
like migrations begin in earnest 2600-2800 years ago.
  Therefore I would be looking for cultural forces that had a greater
affect on the western coast of americans during the subsequent
period.

  To give some idea how this B46 related expansion seems to have
occurred, based on a fragmentary HLA record, my opionion is that it
started between calutta and S.E. china and thialand. The early
expansion appears to be multidirection, however is increasing
obstructed to the N.W. (tibet). The most rapid expansion occurs down
the western coast of indochina and down the eastern coast of
indochina. It slows markedly heading into the korean peninsula, but
continues up through manchuria and streaks into the north eastern
part of siberia where it stops.
  The chinese history reports the forced migrations of people, I
would suspect that the target areas are in the manchurian and
shangdong region. Japanese have haplotypes for example in common with
eastern and NE coastal dwellers to a much greater degree than S.Han
or Central Han. THere is the stories about the Hainan dwellers, and
the Mung, but also the strong association between PNGers,
Polynesians, with peoples of tiawan and eastern China.
  Within indonesia, for example, Java, there appear to be a limited
number of B46 haplotypes suggesting a few settlers from a specific
region, the same is true in other areas. In this case the motivation
is probably less political and more about isolated settlers or
traders who were stranded. The polynesians of the eastern edge have
no B46, and the level in Tiawan aboriginals is very low. Therefore on
has to look on cultures like this as having been pushed. Japan and
Korea are relatively low considering their wet rice farming
histories, but Japan has different B46 relative to Korea suggesting
that chinese immigration to both came from slightly different
sources.
  How big was the push. B46 does not exist elsewhere in the world
except asia, and from recent immigrants from asia elsewhere. Within
the region surrounding 'Burma' there are 12 core haplotypes, and I
did manage to reconstruct quite of few of these to complete length.
These 12 appear to be recombinants of a fiew HLA A and DR and
indicate that B46 appeared in a reasonably small population. It is
hard to determine when it appeared exactly, it was created as a
result of a geneconversion event between B150* and the HLA C locus.
The preservations of haplotypes in various areas and its non-
diffusive spread suggest that it is young, the large scale migrations
proceeded much more rapidly than diffusion. I would place the
original clusters of bearers in which recombination occurred in the
10s to 100s for period of time in high 1000s of years sufficient to
generate these 12 core haplotypes. In addition some of these
haploypes bear alleles which probably came from the west, via India,
and there is a strange B46 in India. The PMRCA for domesticate rice
appears to be also India. But the other haplotypes appear to be
indochinese or chinese, this suggests a potential admix event that
might have occurred with the onset of quasi-wet rice agriculture in
parts of western indochina.
  Its hard to really gage the date of the expasion but I would say
between 10 and 25 kya. The current number of B46 bearers in the World
exceed 1 billion. It was an unmistakable expansion. There is no B46
in the indigeonous New World population, there are markers, many, for
the indigeonous people that likely surrounded this group, although
they need not have migrated within this 'expansion' period.
  
  But I should point out that the closest similarities between the
culture and genetic of the ecuadorial new world lie in Japan and Amur
river, and if anything the cultural connects are very old. Pottery in
the region developed 13,000 to 16,000 years ago, and pottery in the
new world is not likely older than 10,000 years. There are various
opinions about agriculture in the holo-Jomon regions however I assume
that the clay pots were at minimally used to store gathered goods
would lean toward that they had light agriculture about the time
pottery appears. In the new world Squash was domesticated 11,000
years ago followed by beans and avocados.

  Thus now we are at the paper, at 5200 years somehow they are
bringing down close to the coastal regions in valleys what are 'now'
domesticated goods with a preference in the Andean highlands. This
form of agriculture differs from any part of asia, with the exception
of Jomon period and Modern Japan were people are forced to grow crops
on the hilltops and sides of mountains. The link could mearly be
common ancestry.
  I took the list of things on that list to the local grocery store
here which has an increasing Native American foods section. I was
shocked to find all but one item on the list in the store. We have
very few people from peru living in my extended neighborhood. So it
is rather bizarre to me that so many of these goods could be
commercial all the way to a cross-over vendor in houston, and not
themselves domesticated and spread more widely.

  The secrets to Norte Chico lie in the food.
Are these sites really a concise cluster or did they have a commuter
style of agriculture whereby they lived in one place and grew items
elsewhere. It is hard for me to see that any other people except the
andean dwellers had much to do with food evolution, not even the
Jomonese. What appears to have developed in that region is a people
obsessed with domesticating foods, this obsession moved north into
mesoamerica. 

-- 
Philip
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