Re: Cocaine in ancient Egypt?

From: zolota (zolota3_at_REMOVEshaw.ca)
Date: 01/20/05 

Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:44:04 GMT

"Martyn Harrison" <nospam@spammers.of.the.world.unite> wrote in message
news:gr0tu09o49jn25btpdat9p123ffpup2t0m@4ax.com...
> Apparently on date Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:46:26 GMT, "zolota"
>>"Martyn Harrison" <nospam@spammers.of.the.world.unite> wrote
>>> Apparently on date Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:15:07 +0000, Julian Richards
>>>
>>>>>>Drugs one way, gold going back the other with the Egyptian
>>>>>> elite willing to pay top whack for what is otherwise unavailable.
>>>>>Where is the Egyptian gold? Even if everything was reused -
>>>>>which is unbelieveable - it should contain trace elements.
>>>>The idea of such trade is a hypothesis. What is needed is research on
>>>>the mummies to see for sure what these chemicals are and what is
>>>>origin.
>>> We know exactly what the chemicals are, I would think. Can't see any
>>> obvious
>>> way to determine where they came from. Still, maybe someone will invent
>>> a new
>>> research tool one day that can do this.
>>>
>>> OTOH, gold is a substance that very definitely *does* contain
>>> contaminants
>>> which can signal the origin of the gold. It would be relatively easy to
>>> identify gold with what seems likely to be african origins, even though
>>> precipitated coca alkaloids in hair give no clues at all (In a similar
>>> way,
>>> gold incorporated into human flesh would give no clues of origin as you
>>> can't
>>> tell what markers were originally associated with it.)
>>>
>>> So I would suggest the most logical test for the "transatlantic trade"
>>> hypothesis is to examine the gold in ancient SA artifacts to see where
>>> it came
>>> from. Were there to be significant trade over centuries, as suggested,
>>> there
>>
>>I work in the gold trade at times, and it's a given that raw gold can be
>>traced to the nearest mountain range. The technology was developed to
>>fight theft. For example, someone steals gold from a mine in California
>>then claims a discovery in Nevada and sells the gold as the product of the
>>Nevada operation.
>>
>>When someone discovers a gold object in, say, Bulgaria, they want to know
>>where it came from. The same technology might point to a local or a
>>distant source. I'm sure that many gold objects in museums have been
>>analysed this way to study trade or technology connections. If any ancient
>>artifact found in Latin America had even a hint of an African origin I'm
>>sure that would be well known. Given the silence, I'm positive that no
>>Egyptian gold ever made it to South America.
>
> Maybe so.
>
>>I'm not sure who started this thread but it's ignorance is astronomical.
>>If true trade ever existed between Egypt and Columbia then one of the
>>materials to move would have been emeralds. The Egyptian's loved them, and
>>most of their supplies came from Afghanistan. Gems are far easier to trace
>>than gold because they are not chemically altered. Columbia is today's
>>major source of this gem. Any ancient trade would surely have included
>>emeralds, yet none have been identified in all of the Egyptian artifacts.
>>Wonder why? The same goes for any gem or mineral found. Flint arrowheads
>>can be traced to the actual quarry they were culled from. There are still
>>groups of then that obviously came from the same place, but the actual
>>quarry has yet to be identified. But, surely, if some rock in an egyptian
>>site came from the Wester Hemisphere we would have heard about that by
>>now.
>
> Can you test a gemstone without significantly damaging it?

Define damage. A ten carat emerald in the handle of a knife found in Tut's
tomb does not have the value of a ten carat emerald, it has the value of
it's place in history. Cutting off a corner for science is irrelevant to the
worth of the stone, because it's priceless to begin with. Would you call it
damaged? More technically, the metal content can be measured non
destructively I believe, and if not by using a fraction of a gram drilled
from the unseen side when returned to the knife handle.

In mineral studies we use a vacuum, laser ablation, and spectroscopy to
evaporate a 1-5 micron hole from the surface of a mineral sample. To study
surface effects the laser is pulsed repeatedly to "drill" a hole through a
depth of many microns. For all I know this technology was developed for
museums, or police departments. It does not matter, someone who has an idea
of a new tool would have a good idea who would use it.

>
>>We keep hearing about discoveries that plants have ingredients that are
>>the same or similar to others already known. If a test for cocaine on a
>>mummy is positive, so what? The ancients probably knew to use some plant
>>that grew on the river, or wherever.
>
> It's a fair conundrum, I think. Had there been trade between these
> continents
> at the time, we would, I think, accept that cocaine leaves were forming
> part of
> that trade.

In Egyptian times gold production was about a tonne a year. In "civilized"
south america only royalty could wear it. Coastal peoples wore gold
ornaments just as they wore shell and feather. I can't see gold as being a
trade commodity for them.

>
> Because trade wasn't happening, it's therefore an interesting question as
> to
> the source of the substances. I'm happy to accept that it was probably old
> world plants used in the mummification process or some similar
> explanation, and
> the true story won't really tell us anything new, but the question does
> provide
> an opportunity to analyse what evidence we can think up / conclusions we
> can
> draw from it.
>
> If you like, this kind of unsettled question tells a lot about the poster,
> rather than history.
>
> Another line of speculation, when did the people in South America start
> using
> cocaine to the extent necessary? Did some of these Egyptian mummies
> predate
> that period? Easy enough to test remains for cocaine in that continent,
> I'd
> have imagined. Are there similarities / differences? There are mummies and
> well-preserved remains.

AFAIK cocaine use was ancient, as are other medicinal herbs. Domesticated
corn is several thousand years back, but cocaine the simple product is
merely the chewed leaves of the plant. Cocaine is an alkaloid as are
tobacco, opium, and 5,000 others. Opium use is Sumerian, 4,000 bc, the
egyptians list it as a medicine. Surely an alkaloid inserted in a mummy
would kill the bacteria that cause rot, and extensive practice with many
plants could screen those that reduce it, one may have been very similar to
cocaine. I mean, does C17H23O4N sound like a unique compound?

Z

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