Re: The first Swedes + seed

From: Seppo Renfors (Renfors_at_not.com.au)
Date: 02/06/05 

Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 12:16:42 GMT

"I.E_Johansson" wrote:
>
> "Seppo Renfors" <Renfors@not.com.au> skrev i meddelandet
> news:4204C510.A1ECB9FC@not.com.au...
> >
> >
> > JMB wrote:
> > >
> > > "I.E_Johansson" <inger_e.johansson@telia.com> wrote in message
> > > news:40wMd.129481$dP1.463015@newsc.telia.net...
> > > > Alan,
> > > > if you spoken to BB that's good for you. One other told me the other
> day
> > > > that they hadn't met or spoken for several years. Don't know why.
> Anyhow
> > > > your interpretation is 100% wrong no matter what.
> > > > Your interpretation is in my and my friends(Ph.D, MA and BA in History
> > > > used
> > > > to read 1700's documents in their daily work) so far from the truth
> that
> > > > it's no use discussing it at all.
> > > >
> > > > Inger E
> > > >
> > >
> > > Inger,
> > >
> > > Can you give any example of someone using "på andra sidan" to mean
> > > "opposite" rather that "on the other side of". If you can do that, then
> > > people may believe you, if you can't then no reasonable person can.
> >
> > Sight...... I find it difficult to accept some people around here
> > claim to be educated - a CHILD can give an example of that, why is
> > there a need to even ask? The language used is unimportant - it is the
> > same in both cases.
> >
> > Here is an example, "In Canada on the other side of Illinois is a
> > farm", I can be IN Canada and say that, and it is 100% understandable,
> > but it doesn't matter where the hell in the world I am for that to be
> > correctly understood. - it can also be said "There is a farm opposite
> > Illinois in Canada." - it is EXACTLY the same meaning to both
> > sentences and does indeed have the meaning "opposite" as "the other
> > side" most often has
> >
> > However if this is the text the argument is about:
> >
> > "Monsr. La Croix, som mycket rest i södra delen av Canada, berättade,
> > at på andra sidan om Illinois finner man i skogen på många ställen de
> > der vilt växande fruktträd planterade som i lineer."
> >
> > First some assumptions are required, not mentioned in the text, that
> > "Illinois" is the US State of that name. A further problem is that
> > "Canada" by that name seems to come into existence in 1791 when the
> > Constitutional Act, divided Quebec into Lower Canada and Upper Canada
> > (which is below Lower Canada) - or after the period the text relates
> > to. The borders with the US are substantially same as they are now.
> > See:
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/6jgby
> >
> > In any event Illinois was French till 1763 and British till 1783, but
> > the territory has been known as "Illinois" from the early 1700's
> > French explorers, it is said to originate from the local native word
> > "Illiniwek" for "men".
> >
> > Therefor I have to assume that some later author/editor has resorted
> > to refer to modern borders and names.
> >
> > Then let my clarify the meaning of that text. The words "på andra
> > sidan om" is ambiguous and can be read two ways if one is silly enough
> > to focus solely on them. That it applies to an area south of Illinois
> > -OR- an area in South Canada. More is required to be known. Simply
> > looking at the remainder of the text and taking the ordinary natural
> > meaning of the words, it then must be understood to refer to "Canada".
>
> As it is in Kalm's text. The paragraph before and the sentences before say
> that Mr Croix travelled from Quebec westward in southern Canada.

Inger, at that time if he was in "Quebec" (as state/geographic area)
he was not in "Canada" as "Canada" was the result of splitting up
"Quebec" into two parts. It wasn't till 19th century when "Lower
Canada" became Quebec, the state as we know it today. The location of
Quebec City was originally a Huron-Wendat village called "Stadacona".
The original settlement in 1608 was at Cape Diamond and was called
Kebec and was named after an Algonquin word meaning "where the river
narrows". It appears that the city was called "Quebec" from 1660 at
least:

http://www.rtsq.qc.ca/quebec/dc056.gif

Of course the problem here is, what is being called "Canada"? See
this:

A 1904 map:
http://tinyurl.com/4fvel

According to that map "southern Canada" is in TEXAS!

A 1912 map:
http://tinyurl.com/6wukt
Almost the modern borders on this.

A 1732 map:
http://tinyurl.com/65zuq
This map shows "Canada" as taking in Illinois and what is called "New
France" on some other maps. Again if this map was being referred to -
then the "other side of Illinois" is still in modern Canada.

> That gives a direct information where he could have seen it. He didn't
> travell to Illinois nor did he pass Illinois travelling southward. So there
> is nothing to be mistaken about or that couldn't be understood directly by
> all of those who look it up or have read the other information I provided.

It is correct ONLY if the assumptions I made are true, that I used to
base my argument on. If it refers to travel from the City of Quebec in
reference to those other maps, then it does require travelling south
past Illinois - though not necessarily close to it - to be in
"southern Canada". In fact "southern Canada" takes in Illinois on some
of those maps.

One thing is certain - it isn't IN Illinois (of that time). So the
conclusion does become that whatever map was used - the probability is
that the referred to area as "other side of Illinois" is in modern day
Southern Canada which ever way you look at it. Still I would be
happier to be able to locate that "southern Canada" better to be more
certain.

> Childish behavior seems to be the only thing the naysayers have to offer
> these days ....

Lets put it this way - its the result of their desperation in proving
everything you say to be wrong :-) 

-- 
SIR - Philosopher unauthorised 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
misled.
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