Re: Lime tree and Swedes living like Indians.

From: Philip Deitiker (Nopdeitik_at_att.net.Spam)
Date: 02/10/05 

Date: 10 Feb 2005 21:46:51 GMT

In sci.archaeology, tkavanagh created a message ID
news:ONGdnUlsidyVMpbfRVn-oA@comcast.com:

> Why not, nothing you have written here is related
> to facts.

I wonder if Inger is arguing with tk because.

A. She wants to further embarass herself in public.
B. She believes that arguing an undefendendable position
   is as good as a defense.
C. This month has been a good month for Vodka sales in Sweden.
D. Her prescription for . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
E. All the above.

I was reading the Teachings of Buddha the other night and it
said something about.

 Don't argue, concede the argument. but if one ask you
what the truth is do not state right or wrong, but only the
facts, not in a way to conceal the facts.
  
>From chistian philospophy 'don't throw pearls to the pigs'
The parable of the seeds is that only seeds that fall on
prepared soil will sprout and grow, those that fall on the
road get trampled, and will never amount too much.

If someone has something to say about native american culture
that differs from others point of view, it is no shame to
state those facts, as they are, whether or not they prove a
point is a different issue. I, for one, am tired about hearing
about the Norse in north america because essentially there are
no archaeological facts except one site in Labrador (The
actual archaeology here is seldomly discussed), After leaving
Shikoku on Saturday I have a mountain of papers unfortunately
written in Japanese (but I will make an effort to translate)
on the diffusion of technologies over 100s to 1000s of km in
the pre-civil period of Japan. At some point I would like to
compare these works with similar techno/cultural diffusion in
the new world.
    My point is this, there is a putative connection between
china/korea and Japan that precedes the civil (Yayoi-now dated
from 1000 BC to 400AD) period. But this connection is not
arbitrarily concieved, but based on precise cultural
comparisons of pottery artefacts and tools that are exactly
matched between distal sites. For any given cultural region in
Japan these artefacts match those in some other culture on the
continent. Typical distances are 500 km.
  Any known connection between the Norse and NA cultures
should be obvious cultural linkes via classes nearly identicle
cultural objects. For the Norse/NA connection we are talking
about 500 to 1000 years ago, from the Japan/Korean we are
talking about 3000 years ago, so that time is less of a factor
in Norse/NA connection and artefacts should be more obvious.
  The absense of evidence linking scandinavian culture with
midwestern NA culture is a fact. Professional archaeology
would have easily detected a link. Even as much as the HLA for
Japan spells out genetic differences between 20% of Japanese
genes and Chinese and Koreans, marking off the earlier genetic
stasis on these islands testifies to the fact that trade
during the earlier period was also not neccesarily associated
with migrations. So that even if the Norse peoples had died
out the cultural influences would have persisted. This is not
seen.
  I am sure Eric is going to squinkle in here with his
contrarisms about absense of evidence not being evidence of
absense. But I should make to point that cultural exchange
even over 1000 km 3000 years ago makes itself blatently
obvious even when genetic exchange is not clear. Given that
some many are interested and so much archaeology has been done
[point and so what is the matter with discussing it] it
should be obvious if the Norse were constantly settling the
mid west for a 600 year period.
  At least I can make one point. Given the route between Korea
and Shikoku crosses 2 seas via a small cut, but is as much a
strait line, that cultural trade implies a knowledge of sea
routes prior to mapping as we know it, and that different
regions tended to trade with different continental groups
suggests that links were specific and may have represented
ancient ancestral ties. There is a distribution of density of
similar artefacts and proximity to coastline, always. In the
case of the Minnesota/Greenland norse connection there is no
connection between density of putative finds and coastline,
excepting the l'meadows, which is not proximal to a useful
entry-navigation point. Therefore it is possible to present
specific contradictory evidence such as, numbers of sites
close to navigable bodies of water versus artefacts at those
sites which might be considered Norse.
  Once again the archaeological evidence from Japan shows that
one can discriminate as many as 4 cultures on one small
islands 3 groupable to a major culture and 1 that might
represent an extension of ryukyuan/kyushan culture. And
example is the Kiazuka shell mound in which a skeleton, shell
tools, maritime impliments, etc are all found in the same
site, and differ from other sites on the same small island
which are typified by multicolored freeform ringed lipped
earthenware pottery, animal bones, bone and stone tools. By
any consideration, these are closely related cultures, and in
query I could not get anyone to demarkate an actual
morphological difference between the two groups. This is also
evidence because groups as different as Vikings and Native
Americans have cultural artifacts that easily identify them.
And yet no such artefacts exist at points in which Norse would
have to have traveled to get to inland sites, or that would be
evident with persistent culture.

Therefore on 3 levels we have a lack of evidence which one
expects to have been abundant if the claims were true. 

-- 
Philip
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