Re: Jared Diamond's new book
From: I.E_Johansson (inger_e.johansson_at_telia.com)
Date: 03/01/05
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Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 04:16:39 GMT
<icycalmca@yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:1109646304.858022.118480@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Soren Larsen wrote:
> Daryl Krupa wrote:
<snip>
> > Soren:
> > I would imagine that the cooling trend after the Medieval
> > Optimum would have meant that there was more sea ice in
> > Davis Strait,
>
> I guess this is part of the problem, there is a bit too much
> imagining going on.
Which is incredible to realise that so many scholars seems to have missed
that there are good information to be found in Ivar Bardson's "Det gamle
Grřnlands beskrivelse" edited in Copenhagen 1930 by Finnur Jónsson from the
handwritten documents. Please observe that most of Finnur Jónsson's comments
make good points and shouldn't be overlooked.... as they have been...
Ivar Bardson, his name is also spelt JIvar, Ivarus as surname. Bardson also
spelt Bardarson, Bĺrdson and Bárđssón.:
"Tha norden lenger fra Vesterbijgde ligger et stuort feld, som heder
Hammelradzfeld, och linger aff en till thette field maa ingen mand seigle
som liff vill beholde, ........."
Quick translation: "far to the north of the Western Settlement there is a
large field called Hammeradzfeld,[IEJ: observe that you can link this with a
part of the Greenlandic Saga often omitted in English and Scandinavian
translations, as well as with the ruins found on Ruin Island which all are
explained in the omitted/forgotten text], no men who don't want to risk his
life should sail longer than this[field] ......"
In other words we know the progress of the Ice in north but we also know
from other parts of Ivar Bardson's story that in the older days the route
from Scandinavia to Greenland went far to the north compared with the route
in 1360's and 1370's. Please observe that Ivar Bardson grow old and that his
inheritance after his death wasn't up in court for confirmation of Ivar
owning some land until 1400 AD. In this last sentence please read my
question to many of you as well as to other scholars: How come that no one
taken time to find out who Ivar Bardson and his brother the Bishop were
related to the Royal Familes which directly gives an answer to why Ivar
Bardson was accepted by the Pope, why Ivar Bardson of all was given a sort
of 'free pass' to the first vacant clerk job when he returned in 1348 to
tell about the Western Settlement's situation, why Ivar Bardson and Paul
Knutson were chosen for the two important missions: collect the
Tiundetaka[Tiunde= 1/10 by you English also called tithes, -taka = collect]
from the Greenlanders who migrated from the Western Settlement, more than
1000 people btw, and the rest of the Norse Greenlanders living in NA. All
this to be found in documents from 14th century, mostly Annals from
monestries. Among them the Greenland Annal summoned in 1477/78 by a
Dutch/Swedish Nobleman during the Pinning Pothurst voyage.
>
> We dont know if there was significantly more ice on the
> west side of Greenland and even if there was how can we
> tell if it made travel to Markland too difficult?
>
> We have reports about more ice in the Greenland sea and
> the Denmark Strait forcing the sailroutes to go further south,
> but the current along the eastcoast is the greenland polar
> current responcible for the cooling of Greenland.
> This current goes round the tip of Greenland and up the
> west coast
We know that in mid 14th century the Ice situation was an other than todays
but not as good as in older days. We know that the sailing to Vinland in
1180's went from Herjolfsnes westward for three days and part of a day
'until' they reached the Ice. At that point they sailed southward until they
reached 'land' which is described in a way corresponding to Baffin Island.
Thus we do have a relatively good picture of what it might have looked liked
in for example 10th century.
>
> On the west coast the warm Irminger current (Northern tongue of
> the Gulf stream) surfaces and blends with the polar current making
> up the relatively warm West Greenland current making the waters
> of west Greenland open for navigation _all year round_ as far
> as Sisimut.
>
> So there is reason to believe that ice conditions was rather
> different on the westcoast, and even on the eastcoast the
> cooling only forced the searoutes further south.
'We' knows that the situation on the eastcoast of Greenland were relatively
good in 11th century but also up in late 14th century. How? there are two
shipswreched groups mentioned in texts of the time which gives the
information if you care to look closer at the sailinginformation presented
when sailing from western Iceland to Greenland. In one of these groups were
King Olav's young son. He died there on the eastern side of Greenland as
some knows. Which King Olav? Go to the Prime sources not the Icelandic Sagas
but other Icelandic as well as Norwegian sources. Read Tjodolf among other.
<snip> due to a new article to be sent to you within a few days.
Inger E
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