Re: Related languages (Re: A China-Sumer connection)
From: Comm (tjsrno_at_spampost.com)
Date: 03/12/05
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Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 11:54:45 GMT
"Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kriha@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:42324374@clear.net.nz...
>
> Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:42319CDC.2BF8@worldnet.att.net...
>> Paul J Kriha wrote:
>> >
>> > Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>> > news:423063BD.4FE5@worldnet.att.net...
>> > > Paul J Kriha wrote:
>> > > > benlizross <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
>> > > > news:422F6071.179A@ihug.co.nz...
>> > > > > Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> > > > > > ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Do you have _any_ examples of a "conqueror" imposing their
>> > > > > > > > language
>> > > > > > > on the "conquered"?
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > How else did many Native American languages in N America,
>> > > > > > > Pictish,
>> > > > > > > Gaelic, Prussian, etc. lose their speakers?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > By dying out, not by changing their language.
>> > > > > > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Peter, this is nonsense. Read Nancy Dorian's studies of the loss
>> > > > > of
>> > > > > Gaelic. Look at the situation of scores of Native communities in
>> > > > > North
>> > > > > America, where only an elderly minority speak the ancestral
>> > > > > language, or
>> > > > > the last native speaker died 40 years ago. These people have not
>> > > > > "died
>> > > > > out", but they have lost their languages, by shifting to speaking
>> > > > > the
>> > > > > dominant language. Even the Moriori and the Tasmanians, contrary
>> > > > > to
>> > > > > popular belief, are not "extinct", but their languages certainly
>> > > > > are.
>> > > > > Ross Clark
>> > > >
>> > > > More examples:
>> > > >
>> > > > In the area of today's NE Germany there were large
>> > > > Slavic nations of Lusatians, Polabians, Pomoranians,
>> > > > most of whom were peacefully absorbed and today
>> > > > with the exception of a few Lusatians they lost their
>> > > > old language and speak German.
>> > > >
>> > > > And earlier, when the Slavs migrated onto the Bohemian
>> > > > plateau a large proportion of Celtic Boii hadn't moved
>> > > > out nor had they died out. By 800/1000 the old language
>> > > > was lost. But their DNA is still alive and well.
>> > > >
>> > > > The Romanians who were mostly Slavic lost their
>> > > > language to Roman overlords.
>> > >
>> > > Give me ONE example of a person who stopped speaking Lusatian and
>> > > started speaking German. And when you have one, let the
>> > > foreign-language
>> > > teachers know how the Germans managed to make the Lusatian do it.
>> > >
>> > > Peter T. Daniels
>> >
>> > Okay, let's do Lusatians then.....
>> >
>> > The following pointer is to a rather lengthy article written by
>> > Dr. Roman Zaroff.
>> >
>> > http://gcjm.dyndns.org/sw/inhalt11/d01.htm
>> >
>> > I don't know much about the author. He is an historian,
>> > educated in Australia (BAHons /LaTrobe/, PhD /Queensland/)
>> > and his main field of research is Medieval Slavdom.
>> >
>> > I know, Peter, that you don't click on links so I cut a few
>> > hopefully relevant sections of the text, and pasted them
>> > down below my sig.
>> >
>> > Paul JK
>> >
>> > Germanisation of the land between the Elbe-Saale
>> > and the Oder rivers. Colonisation or assimilation?
>>
>> Whether "colonization" or "assimilation," it's not "imposition by
>> conquest."
>
> Whatever these words mean to you the fact is that
> the whole large territory occupied at the time by
> several Slavic nations was conquered in stages
> in vicious battles and was followed by several
> unsuccessful bloody revolts. If you read the article
> you would have found that these wars of conquest
> were as brutal as they could be. However, once the
> peace was reached the Germans were usually happy
> to receive payments of tithes and left the local
> population get on with their lives relatively undisturbed.
>
> The quoted article deals with what happened after the
> conquests. Were the original settlers forcibly removed
> or killed and therefore displaced by the real Germanic
> settlers (he refers to that as colonisation), or were they
> left where they were and assimilated/Germanised over
> the following centuries.
>
> His contention is that with possible exception of one district
> the original Slavic population was left in situ and in some
> districts there was hardly any sizeable influx of real Germanic
> settlers. The original Slavic gentry switched to speaking
> German first while some of the peasantry may have taken
> many generations before they spoke exclusively German.
> In some towns speaking Slavic in towns was forbidden.
No need to look so far back in time. AMERICAN INDIANS. Two words that say
a mouthful. They were forbidden to speak their own language - forbidden to
even wear their hair the way they wanted. That is a clear example of "by
force and conquest" that no one can dispute.
And someone thought the idea of "if all the adults die and just the kids are
left" was strange? Someone murders all the adults and takes the children.
That's also common in conquest.
>
> Paul JK
>
>> Peter T. Daniels
>
>
>
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