Re: The Vinland Map's Ink


"Eric Stevens" <eric.stevens@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:ivt351p7dvje3edkn9dvgp93fk5ea0vbq9@xxxxxxxxxx
> On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 20:34:04 -0400, "Steve Marcus"
> <smarcus_spamout_@xxxxxxx> returned to the subject and wrote:
>
> --- snip ---
>
>>> I know. But I understood you to be making the case that there are no
>>> detectable mistakes such as one would expect to see from re-inking on
>>> the
>>> VM. If that's incorrect, let me know. I haven't been following this as
>>> closely as I might, as some of it has been in your posts to Steve
>>> Marcus,
>>> which, after considering that life is short, I mostly skim or skip.
>>
>>One point that Eric neglects is that any "detectable mistake" that would
>>occur as a result of reinking a quill pen would also show up on a map in
>>which the lines were not traced one over the other. That is, when drawing
>>a
>>map as extensive as the Vinland Map, even a single line drawn directly on
>>the parchment would ultimately run the quill out of ink to the point where
>>it would have to be reinked.
>>
>>So the start/stop effect that Eric is going on about has nothing at all to
>>do with whether the Vinland Map was drawn by tracing black "ink" over
>>yellowish "ink." One would expect to see evidence of the quill having
>>been
>>lifted from the parchment and reinked, (or reinked without being lifted in
>>accordance with one of Eric's posts), whether the ink was traced over a
>>previously drawn line or layed down directly on the parchment.
>
> You seem to have missed my point. To be indetectable, the pen drawing
> the black line would have to be refreshed at the same point as the pen
> which drew the yellow line beneath.

You have now dredged that one up for the first time. And I'll respond by
asking "why"? The lines aren't all that wide anyway, so how much of the
yellow line would extend beyond the width of the black line, and what makes
you think that the "refreshing points" of the yellow line would be easily
observable?

Then, there's the point that if you know this (likely, since you just made
it up), and it is correct (unlikely), so would a forger (or the scribe if
the VM is not a fake). The latter probably wouldn't care, except to the
extent that it might become a matter of aesthetics. The former, were he
concerned, could simply take care to start and stop ) the black strokes (at
which point the pen would be re-inked) where he could see that he had
started and stopped the yellow strokes.


> Further, they would both have to
> run out of ink at the same point also.

Nope. The black ink need not runout at precisely the point where the yellow
ink had, particularly if the *forger* took care to use short strokes when
applying the yellow ink. Then all the *forger* needed to do was just stop
the black stroke where appropriate in terms of where the yellow stroke had
been stopped.

> This would apply not once but
> for each of the many times for which the pen was required to be lifted
> from and reapplied to the map as it was drawn, and then redrawn.

So? The *forger* (if, or course, there was a forger) was probably working;
that is, earning a living. S/he was going to get paid for his/her time. In
that case, s/he did not need to be miserly with the spending of it.

>
> I wouldn't expect the pen to be reloaded without lifting from the
> *** while drawing the map. This is a trick required when drawing a
> straight line with the aid of a ruler when the line is too long for
> one pen load of ink. There are two many opportunities to stop and
> reload the pen while drawing the VM to require reloading without
> leaving the paper.

Again, that is irrelevant when considering what I wrote above.

>>>
>>>>
>>>> Second, that has been reinked is only a hypothesis. Another
>>>> possibility is that a yet as unidentified ink was used which separated
>>>> into two phases on the paper. The first phase left the yellow
>>>> (possibly gelatin based) stain in the paper and the second formed a
>>>> black layer on top. The black layer was improperly fused to the lower
>>>> layer and has since flaked away. This is not an altogether unknown
>>>> behaviour for carbon based inks.
>>>
>>> The case you raised was what might happen had the scribe used faulty
>>> ink,
>>> and not known it for some days. If that were the case with the VM, then
>>> re-inking would have been the only way to arrive at the current
>>> situation.
>>> Well, other than starting over with good ink.
>>
>>Which is what any scribe would choose to do, seeing as how re-inking would
>>require at least as much effort as starting de novo, but would add the
>>additional task of having to carefully go over the previously drawn line.
>
> Which is another reason why I think reinking by scribe is a
> non-starter.

You didn't think that when you discovered that Enterline was touting such a
theory. Apparently, Enterline has now jumped ship on that, followed closely
by you.

But of course the theory that a scribe used reinking when creating the
Vinland Map was always irrelevant to the issue of whether the Vinland Map is
a fake. The point is not whether a scribe creating the thing circa 1440
would have engaged in re-inking; I've been arguing (as have others,
including Dr. Towe) that to believe that is to believe in nonsense. The
reinking issue arises only as one plausible explanation for why the Vinland
Map lines are what they are; apparently comprised of two separately applied
"inks", one yellowish and lying beneath the other, which is a black pigment
containing "ink", and **wherein the yellowish line contains modern anatase
while the rest of Map, and certainly to the the black pigment containing
material, do not.** Even Enterline only argued "medieval" reinking to
explain why the lines on the VM are what they are; part two of his argument
was to explain how the anatase got where it is on the VM.

>
> --- snip ----
>
>
>
> Eric Stevens
>

Steve
--
The above posting is neither a legal opinion nor legal advice,
because we do not have an attorney-client relationship, and
should not be construed as either. This posting does not
represent the opinion of my employer, but is merely my personal
view. To reply, delete _spamout_ and replace with the numeral 3


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