Re: The Vinland Map's Ink


"Alaca" <P.Alaca@xxxxxxx> skrev i meddelandet
news:42558728$0$66728$dbd49001@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> I.E_Johansson wrote: rNe5e.21598$d5.157956@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
>
> > "Alaca" skrev
>
> >> Inger,
> >> Before blaming Ken Towe for anything:
> >> Tell us what is expected from a 1430's map and why?
> >
> > In this case exactly what VM show. Including the Tartar connection
> > btw.
>
> You can't use the Vinland Map and the Tartar Relation together,
> because they are very different!

You statement above is true in one way, they aren't alike, but also show
that you aren't aware of the contact between the Swedes and the Tartars. Nor
are you aware of the fact that those contacts goes back in documents to
Emperor Julian's days..... So yes you can use the Vinland map and the Tartar
Relation together. I take it that you aren't aware of the Tartars being
mentioned in Scandinavian documents from Viking Age to mid 1400's? The
argument you try to put forward is one of the weakest no matter that it's
been heard many hundred times over told by those who don't believe in VM
being genuine. That argument is ad hominem to 100% in the discussion about
VM. The wormholes are correct - they have been studied. That's the only
thing that would have been able to be put forward.
What's even more interesting. The 'ingredients' found in the VM ink are same
ingredients which are known(!) to cause wormholes if the ink wasn't well
mixed/blended....
>
> Tow 2004 qoutes D. Baynes-Cope from the British Museum:
> ""The behaviour of the ink under ultra-violet light was of
> particular interest. Iron compounds quench the fluorescence
> induced in the background by ultra-violet light and for this
> reason, faded iron gallo-tannate ink, yellowish-brown by
> daylight, will appear black against a bluish or yellowish
> fluorescent background under this form of lighting. The inks
> used in both the Tartar Relation and the Speculum Historiale
> showed this phenomenon whereas the ink used both for the
> outline of the [Vinland] map itself and for the text on the leaf did
> not show this phenomenon.""

So what. It doesn't prove anything for or against VM. It only shows that
someone comparing ink completely forgotten that carbon-ink was used from
Ancient Age up to Medieval Age and that one can't say if Apples is Apples if
you compare it with Pears. An observation is made but the observation has no
bearing for a conclusion to be drawn.
>
> http://webexhibits.org/vinland/paper-towe04.html
> page 3 and 4 in my copy.
>
> >> Tell us where your famous 'Mappa 56' is to be seen.
>
> > This [...]
> > [...] location.
>
> I know what you told us that map is (or was), but you asked
> Ken Towe if he had acces to it, and AFAIK that map is
> "missing". Therefore I asked you where that map can be seen.
> And you gave no answer to that.

No that map most certainly isn't missing. I had my present copy of it the
other week! It's still in same archieve as it was a few years ago when it
was spoken of. If someone there aren't willing to give a copy out that's
nothing I ever heard of.

>
> >> Tell us what the normal procedure for carbon ink is.
>
> > Have you [...]
> > [...] that time.
>
> I know what carbon ink is, but you mentioned it in relation with the VM.
> What I meant to ask was what that relation is.
> And what is the significance of your remark?

The significance is that in Medieval Age carbon ink in some areas of the
world contained same components as VM ink. That's the interesting part. The
inks in Ancient and Medieval Age could have and also had different types of
binders. While egg is a wellknown binder for oilcolors the binders in ink
could range from water(! yes I found an early medieval recipe with that), to
animal fat and gelantine. Many others existed as well. Eric S is correct -
before the ink is completely identified there is nothing to say for or
against the ink at all.

>
> >> Tell us what that special sand was.
> >
> > The interesting thing [...]
> > [...]become ink-sand.
>
> That is a description of a normal fine sand. But why did you bring it
> again in relation with the VM? What is the significance?

Have you or haven't you ever had the pleasuare(?) writing with an ink which
is composed from a medieval recipe? Have you placed the sand on top to dry
the ink? AND have you or haven't you looked in a microscope afterwards? I
have. Before you have it's hard to make you understand that the sand is more
than significant when we discuss any line drawn with medieval ink.

>
> >> In other words: please, state your case.
>
> > That I did several years ago. Only a short variant here.
>
> Ken Towe asked:
> "" I would like those who regard the VM as an authentic
> medieval document to answer my question ...If the map
> is really medieval, what is a PLAUSIBLE explanation for
> the appearance AND composition of the inks that is
> consistent with the age of the parchment? ""
>
> Maybe you did several years ago, but that is of no use now.
> And here you didn't 'state your case', not even a short variant.
> It is not enough to mention a map, ink and sand. You have to
> tell what their relevance is and why they make the VM genuine.


Oh yes I have stated my case many many times. Problem is that some here
doesn't read the referred texts, tests etc. They read as some potentat is
said to read the Bible....

Inger E
>
> --
> - Peter Alaca -
>
>
>
>


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: The Vinland Maps Ink
    ... >>> very difficult to apply a second layer of ink indetectably. ... >>direct quotation of your position) regarding the lines on the Vinland Map ... claim of impossibility was B.S. then, ... criticized Brown/Clark (and by inference McCrone) for offering an opinion ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Provenance and Historical Science.
    ... >there is a finite late date for the Ink. ... >picture of the map showing the yellow ink then creates the latest ... >one has to consider the remoteness of that probability. ... What technology will result in particle distributions on VM sizes. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: The Vinland Map Find Or Fraud?
    ... > idea as deriving anatase for the VM ink from clays. ... > then appear in an ink on the Vinland Map. ... > anatase without kaolinite is like finding a needle or two in a haystack ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: The Vinland Maps Ink
    ... >>map as extensive as the Vinland Map, even a single line drawn directly on ... >>the parchment would ultimately run the quill out of ink to the point where ... started and stopped the yellow strokes. ... >>> The case you raised was what might happen had the scribe used faulty ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Vineland
    ... >> purchasers that the map may not have been what it was ... in the evaluation of an artifact, it is hardly a conclusive matter. ... the VM or the science of archaeology discussed on the program from changing ... And the strongest is the ink, which was the first argument presented by ...
    (sci.archaeology)