Re: The Nature of Anatase...

Doug Weller <dweller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> says in
news:ja14615a6hd47d7i6fbma7c6hkc06rqlih@xxxxxxx:

> On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 11:27:28 +1200, in sci.archaeology, Eric
> Stevens wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 19:59:42 +0100, Doug Weller
>><dweller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 10:59:45 GMT, in sci.archaeology,
>>>I.E_Johansson wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Eric Stevens" <eric.stevens@xxxxxxxxx> skrev i meddelandet
>>>>news:7n8161pr70h1a7fnl1o8gqj5t00el3if72@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 06:16:13 +0100, Doug Weller
>>>>> <dweller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:[SNIP]
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>ROTFL. Inger has accused me of being a strawman for
>>>>> >>>>>saying that a
>>>>ship
>>>>> >>>>>with a square sail can't point as close to the wind as
>>>>> >>>>>one with a
>>>>lateen
>>>>> >>>>>rig (of course, she claims I'm wrong).
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>You are not, but probaly by not as much as most people
>>>>> >>>>would believe.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>I'm aware that a lot of people underestimate what a
>>>>> >>>square rig can do,
>>>>but
>>>>> >>>Inger just said she'd phoned a friend and that friend
>>>>> >>>(one of her
>>>>experts)
>>>>> >>>had laughed at me for saying that a lateen rig could
>>>>> >>>point closer to
>>>>the
>>>>> >>>wind than a square rig.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>Modern replicas of viking ships can indeed sail to
>>>>> >>windward. I forget exactly how well but they definitely
>>>>> >>can do it. That the originals were sailed in this fashion
>>>>> >>is indicated by the fittings on the hull to enable them to
>>>>> >>haul the sail into an almost fore and aft position.
>>>>> >>They had no reason to do this unless they were sailing
>>>>> >>into the wind.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Eric, why are you telling me this? Are you saying you have
>>>>> >evidence that sailing this way they can point as close to
>>>>> >the wind as a lateen rig?
>>>>> >
>>>>> Good heavens no!
>>>>>
>>>>> I was merely reinforcing the original statement that they
>>>>> could indeed sail into the wind.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no question that square sails can sail better down
>>>>> wind than can lateen sails. If square sails could also sail
>>>>> better up wind there would never have been any need to use
>>>>> lateen sails and the many variations. Lateen sails will
>>>>> definitely go better up wind than a square sail.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>No not necessarily and never if you tried to sail a Viking
>>>>ship with square sails and other with Lateen sails.
>>>
>>>It doesn't matter what kind of ship it is, you won't be able to
>>>find a square rigged ship that goes upwind better than one with
>>>lateen sails. Assertions don't cut it.
>>>
>>>Some years ago there were those who
>>>>tested and the old tales about how long it would take to sail
>>>>from Gothenburg up the coast was correct for the Viking ship,
>>>>but the other had to spend more hours out on open sea. The
>>>>reason why Lateen sails came was due to the new and different
>>>>types of ships. What's best for one ship isn't necessairly
>>>>good for an other.
>>>
>>>You know that lateen sails were developed long before the
>>>Vikings. They were developed because they were more efficient.
>>> If you think the ship styles came first, how about some
>>>evidence?
>>>
>>>>
>>>>As for sailing: I take it that you haven't noticed that the
>>>>best effect of sailing into wind with a Viking Ship is reached
>>>>at 55 degrees with a devation figure 5-10 degrees from the
>>>>wind.
>>>
>>>Eric, what do you think Inger means here?
>>
>>I think she is saying that the ship is sailing to within 5-10
>>degrees of the apparent wind and making a course of 55 degrees
>>of the wind. Both figures sound to high to me.
>>
>>Modern yachts *can* sail to within 15 degress of the apparent
>>wind but their best speed to windward is usually achieved if
>>they try to sail not quite so high. I can imagine that a viking
>>ship might make 60 degrees off the wind in very favourable
>>conditions but I would expect it to more likely to be 70
>>degrees.
>>>>
>>>>The important factor when windward sailing is to be done is to
>>>>make certain that the ballast is heavy enough for the Viking
>>>>Ship. If not then of course there will and would be problems
>>>>sailing to windward, but that isn't a problem only for Viking
>>>>Ships....
>>>
>>>Ballast? No, the important factor for sailing to windward is
>>>not ballast, although ballast can be part of it. Sailing to
>>>windward is a problem with any kind of square rig, not just
>>>Viking ships.
>>
>>Certainly you can't sail effectively to windward unless you have
>>the sail carrying power and that requires weight down below.
>>Better still, it requires weight to windward, which is why you
>>see crew-lined windward rails and, these days, canting keels
>>which you can hoist way out past the side of the boat.
>
> Yes, of course -- which is why I used to sit on the rail and
> lean out backwards as far as I could. Of course, if you fall
> over... But it's a lot more than ballast.

This has something to do with Anastase right. There are about
an infinite number of things Inger has said here that are wrong,
which makes discussion of anything she says pretty much worthless
but at least try to focus on the particulars of Anastase for the time
being.



--
Philip
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