Re: The Nature of Anatase...

On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 19:59:42 +0100, Doug Weller
<dweller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 10:59:45 GMT, in sci.archaeology, I.E_Johansson wrote:
>
>>
>>"Eric Stevens" <eric.stevens@xxxxxxxxx> skrev i meddelandet
>>news:7n8161pr70h1a7fnl1o8gqj5t00el3if72@xxxxxxxxxx
>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 06:16:13 +0100, Doug Weller
>>> <dweller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 11:54:03 +1200, in sci.archaeology, Eric Stevens
>>> >wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:58:36 +0100, Doug Weller
>>> >><dweller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>>On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:30:25 +1200, in sci.archaeology, Eric Stevens
>>> >>>wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>>On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 06:16:25 +0100, Doug Weller
>>> >>>><dweller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>>On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:27:38 +1200, in sci.archaeology, Eric Stevens
>>> >>>>>wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>Ken did not claim that calcining could only come into existence by
>>> >>>>>>calcining. He said that anatase which has been subject to calcining
>>is
>>> >>>>>>distinguishable from anatase which has not been calcined. Please
>>stop
>>> >>>>>>festooning these discussions with straw men.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>ROTFL. Inger has accused me of being a strawman for saying that a
>>ship
>>> >>>>>with a square sail can't point as close to the wind as one with a
>>lateen
>>> >>>>>rig (of course, she claims I'm wrong).
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>You are not, but probaly by not as much as most people would believe.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>I'm aware that a lot of people underestimate what a square rig can do,
>>but
>>> >>>Inger just said she'd phoned a friend and that friend (one of her
>>experts)
>>> >>>had laughed at me for saying that a lateen rig could point closer to
>>the
>>> >>>wind than a square rig.
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>Modern replicas of viking ships can indeed sail to windward. I forget
>>> >>exactly how well but they definitely can do it. That the originals
>>> >>were sailed in this fashion is indicated by the fittings on the hull
>>> >>to enable them to haul the sail into an almost fore and aft position.
>>> >>They had no reason to do this unless they were sailing into the wind.
>>> >
>>> >Eric, why are you telling me this? Are you saying you have evidence that
>>> >sailing this way they can point as close to the wind as a lateen rig?
>>> >
>>> Good heavens no!
>>>
>>> I was merely reinforcing the original statement that they could indeed
>>> sail into the wind.
>>>
>>> There is no question that square sails can sail better down wind than
>>> can lateen sails. If square sails could also sail better up wind there
>>> would never have been any need to use lateen sails and the many
>>> variations. Lateen sails will definitely go better up wind than a
>>> square sail.
>
>>
>>No not necessarily and never if you tried to sail a Viking ship with square
>>sails and other with Lateen sails.
>
>It doesn't matter what kind of ship it is, you won't be able to find a
>square rigged ship that goes upwind better than one with lateen sails.
>Assertions don't cut it.
>
>Some years ago there were those who
>>tested and the old tales about how long it would take to sail from
>>Gothenburg up the coast was correct for the Viking ship, but the other had
>>to spend more hours out on open sea. The reason why Lateen sails came was
>>due to the new and different types of ships. What's best for one ship isn't
>>necessairly good for an other.
>
>You know that lateen sails were developed long before the Vikings. They
>were developed because they were more efficient. If you think the ship
>styles came first, how about some evidence?
>
>>
>>As for sailing: I take it that you haven't noticed that the best effect of
>>sailing into wind with a Viking Ship is reached at 55 degrees with a
>>devation figure 5-10 degrees from the wind.
>
>Eric, what do you think Inger means here?

I think she is saying that the ship is sailing to within 5-10 degrees
of the apparent wind and making a course of 55 degrees of the wind.
Both figures sound to high to me.

Modern yachts *can* sail to within 15 degress of the apparent wind but
their best speed to windward is usually achieved if they try to sail
not quite so high. I can imagine that a viking ship might make 60
degrees off the wind in very favourable conditions but I would expect
it to more likely to be 70 degrees.
>>
>>The important factor when windward sailing is to be done is to make certain
>>that the ballast is heavy enough for the Viking Ship. If not then of course
>>there will and would be problems sailing to windward, but that isn't a
>>problem only for Viking Ships....
>
>Ballast? No, the important factor for sailing to windward is not ballast,
>although ballast can be part of it. Sailing to windward is a problem with
>any kind of square rig, not just Viking ships.

Certainly you can't sail effectively to windward unless you have the
sail carrying power and that requires weight down below. Better still,
it requires weight to windward, which is why you see crew-lined
windward rails and, these days, canting keels which you can hoist way
out past the side of the boat.



Eric Stevens

.

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