Re: Why only crap in this NG? (was Wolter claims ...)

Eric Stevens <eric.stevens@xxxxxxxxx> says in
news:2a0j91d06rom3r3t857pig77qrskee5ib6@xxxxxxx:

>>I am pointing out her racism. You didn't get the meaning of the
>>other thread, it is not an issue of being racist, its an issue
>>of continuing a racist expression even after it is pointed out
>>that it is that.
>
> That it is racist, is your opinion. That your objection is
> racist, is mine, and you have supplied the evidence.

Your protest, however, shallow suits your pattern of behavior in this
group.

> Do you think it would not be better to discuss these on the
> basis of the facts of the matter rather than the allegations
> which can be slung backwards and forwards?

Oh NOW you bring this up deary, you should bring to the madams
doorstep.

"
In what way would it affect YOU if you had to admit that
the Swedes and the Norwegians not only were active during
the Migration Age up to end of Viking Age in Europe but
also had more impact on the North American History then
what the later arriving Brits, French and Spainards
officially given them credit for?
"

See, because if I was going to pick and ethnocentric fight
I might say the above.

> Either the norse did what Inger claimed, or they didn't.

I don't seen the norse mentioned above in her paragraph.
She is talking about Norwegians and Swedes past the viking age
and North American History.

> Not one of these matters will be resolved by arguing about
> racism whether perceived, real or imaginary.

Eric, Inger has got 80% of the people in this group railing at her
not because of what she says, but how she says it. You can't have
someone provocating a fight and then say well geeze, someone labeling
IT for what IT is a racist.

> The best way to deal with perceived racist arguments is to stick
> with the facts. I agree that it is difficult when people insist
> in arguing in racist terms. I would be happier if you stopped
> using 'racist' or 'racism' as a debating card. This is a 'sci'
> group after all.

That is your opinion, in every instance I see her use this
mode of argument, I am going to point it out, for if nothing else
her fellow Swede can see what their society is producing.

Let us go back through the information as it is being presented.
Somewhere around 1350 things started to change for Greenland.
There were years of extremely cold winter weather that cause sea ice
to wander further south than the previous 200 years, we have that
from icelandic records. Ships that sailed from iceland to greenland
or from norway to greenland were forced to turn back because of
condition, then the reports from ~1360 that the western colony had
been abandonded and within 100 years the eastern colony had been
abandoned. The archaeological reports show a shift in diet, declining
height, decreased bone density, etc. The interpretation is clear.

Inger asserts that
A. The colony was not in decline, its population was growing, to 3500
inds by 1456, 1500 higher than that estimated by the literature.

B. That these 3500 individuals, despite loosing the western
settlement did not decline with climate ,even by 1456.

C. That these 3500 individuals transformed the New World making it
somehow more suitible for european discovery.

and then

"
In what way would it affect YOU if you had to admit that
the Swedes and the Norwegians not only were active during
the Migration Age up to end of Viking Age in Europe but
also had more impact on the North American History then
what the later arriving Brits, French and Spainards
officially given them credit for?
"

So Eric, it is not ONE wrong argument, she has built a whole
house of cards on these arguments, and then she goes about trying
to challenge the british and spanish history on these false
arguments. It is not a simple case of a wrong argument, it is the
case of repeated wrong arguments. In case the scheme has not been
revealed to you, the quoted material is a rhetorical conclusion that
leads A through C. That is ethnocentrism.

Let us make it very clear.
Columbus thought he was going to India, Not a new continent
His choice of routes may have been known to the portuguese or the
basque, it was not one taken by the norse.
It was not until 100 years later did the Brits, French and Spainards
make it back to Labrador [Reason- really bad weather in the
arctic]
The discovery of the New world was preceded by Marco Polos travels,
the latin world was in conflict with the islamic world and they
wanted trade routes to India for precious goods.
The critical events in the discovery of the New World occurred in
the eastern carribean and in Mexico city up to 1524. By 1524 the
the fate of the New World was effectively sealed. At this point
the interior of eastern North America (excluding meso america) had
not been explored.

There is no instance were you can say that precolumbian North
American white 'tribes' except for the people on greenland.

Secondarily, as with the issue of skin color, there are white native
americans, the asia population, some siberian groups have skin at
least a couple shades whiter than mine. If you look at some of the
tribes in british colombia and other parts of canada, you will find
a great number of people have light colored skin. I consider the
argument that non-iberian europeans settled before the spanish
racist because it is ignorant of skin color variation in the new
world. The Ainu, who share alot of afinity to native americans
of the western america, have light skin and many european
characteristics, easily arctic groups from siberia of diverse
origin have made it to the new world. >20% of Eskimo genes show
recent origin from NEastern european (uralic) region.

Making a claim about 'your' peoples accomplishment in another peoples
land because of ignorance of skin color variation is interpretable as
racism.

Third, the use of tainted resources. The argument that Red Indians
versus White Indians is indication that some indians came from Norway
is founded in a poor historical analysis to begin with. Red is slang,
most native americans do not have anywhere near red skin, it is the
anglos that get red skin when burned by the sun. Native americans
tend to have more yellow pigments that europeans and when the tan
their skin turns brown in color. Therefore the discussion of color
and peoples that she bases this 'lost tribe' on is tainted by poor
descriptors.

So Eric let us put this together.

The use or fabrication of incorrect information in support of
a ethnocentric based challenge to history, the use of tainted
information that relies on racial qualifiers, the postulation that
the contribution of ones home country is somehow greater than
everyone elses, despite all evidence to the contrary.

And here is how you are most wrong.

Her evidence in terms of facts are not presented to be discussed
individually, her evidence in terms of facts are presented to support
a conclusion she has already decided, and therefore the discussion
of facts, as we have repeatedly see, has no affect on the propensity
to present more misleading information. It is not the matter of one
innocent mistake, it is the matter of a pattern of abuse in this
group with misstatements in support of an ethnocentric agenda. Call
it what you will, but for me, it is clear that it is racist.
Do you remember the discussion about the VM. THis is a science
group, what she effectively said to Dr. Towe is that no matter how
good his science, it does not trump her belief that the VM is
authentic, the belief of authenticity is a matter that it exists, it
pays no mind what so ever to the possibility of fraud.

What could you possibly offer in her defense that denies Several
years of posting the same positions? Nothing she presented in the
last few weeks is any different than what she was posting 2 years
ago, its not a mistake, its a pattern. Racism is a pattern of
behavior of ehtnocentric and discriminatory arguments that remains
unchanged with critique or attempts as inspection (failed
introspection).
.

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