Re: Why only crap in this NG? (was Wolter claims ...)


"Eric Stevens" <eric.stevens@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:7s0j91tllvkam2jcb2do5ah5hm8itfi183@xxxxxxxxxx
> On Sun, 29 May 2005 04:57:20 GMT, Philip Deitiker
> <Donevenask@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>>Eric Stevens <eric.stevens@xxxxxxxxx> says in
>>news:2juh91dlhhuq9fbf9gb0016t9l0k0sa1jt@xxxxxxx:
>>
>>> On Sat, 28 May 2005 14:47:49 +0200, "Alaca" <P.Alaca@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Eric Stevens wrote: r0vf915im3adgtpjdhdtee2o1oq7pn2fs9@xxxxxxx,
>>>>>
>>>>> You have frequently accussed Inger of racism and have linked
>>>>> other people into this kind of accusation when they do not
>>>>> immediately and violently reject the idea of a pre-Columbian
>>>>> norse presence in NA. I would be careful before you continue
>>>>> to level accusations of racism in this matter. In particular,
>>>>> I would first remove the quite large chip from your not
>>>>> entirely German shoulder.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sorry to have to say this to you but you have been far too
>>>>> effective a cheer-leader in this matter and you must realise
>>>>> that accusations of bias on racial grounds cut both ways.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Where is or was Phlilip promoting the suggested legacy?
>>>>He is not even promoting his own country.
>>>>
>>>>Please say sorry, and not 'sorry to have to say it',
>>>>but a straight 'sorry I said that'.
>>>
>>> I'm sorry but you won't get an apology for what I replied to
>>> Philip. Philip has told us in the past that his ancestry is
>>> mixed German and Native American. It is the latter I suspect
>>> that makes him so defensive of any attempt to suggest that the
>>> Norse may have played any part in the pre-Columbian history of
>>> NA beyond that confirmed by L'anse aux Meadows.
>>
>>My name sake is Swiss, the last swiss ancestor was jewish/swiss, I
>>have germans on one side 3 generations back, and on the other side 4
>>generations back, I have also ancestors from Ireland, Scotland,
>>Britain, France, and a couple of unknowns.
>
> No native americans? What happened to them?
>>
>>> In the past he has variously labelled me and Michael Zalar as
>>> pushing racist theories but I have let that go.
>>
>>You did in the past.
>>
>>> He has called
>>> Inger a racist in the past on on the grounds of her theories and
>>> opinions as to the ancient activities of the Norse. I don't know
>>> about you but I don't think that they on their own justify such
>>> a claim.
>>
>>I called her such because she was using subjective skin color issues
>>to define people. Native americans are not red, typically they are
>>brown skinned to caucasian white to african black. I have met alot of
>>Native Americans, but I have never met a red one.
>>
>>> That Philip's arguments are themself racist in nature is
>>> indicated in the article to which I responded, by the way in
>>> which he stacked up the claims of this race/country against that
>>> race/country and culminated with the statement that "A person in
>>> a far off land cannot lay claim to the sweat of someone elses
>>> brow, rhetoric will also not add to the claimants spirit or take
>>> away from that already come to past. An ancient sled dog on a
>>> sled team strolling across the canadian ice deserves more credit
>>> for the discovery of american than 'your' sweden".
>>
>>Her sweden never did anything in the New World early development.
>
> You don't know that. More to the point, you don't want to find out if
> they did.

But, you dishonest SOB, not only don't *you* know whether Inger's Sweden
ever did anything in the early development of the New World, neither does
Inger E. Johansson know it. However, that doesn't stop her from claiming
that she knows that Sweden, as a government and as a culture did all kinds
of things in the early development of North America, while absolutely never
posting a scrap of evidence supporting, or citations describing such
evidence.

The issue of wanting "to find out" is an irrelevant red herring that you
dishonestly dig up whenever challenged on your (and Inger's) ridiculous
flights of fantasy. Every rational poster on this newsgroup, and every
rational person lurking in this newsgroup, "wants to find out." What Philip
is challenging is Inger's modus operandi of making assertions about Swedish
government and Swedish culture having a major impact on the early
development of North America, as part of the European influence thereon:
she repeatedly makes wild assertions of fact that are unsupported, she calls
people names when challenged, she rarely supports her assertions with any
evidence, and 100 times out of 99, when she does offer support, it turns out
that she is mistaken as to the meaning of her reference(s). He finds this
methodology to be racist. You don't. You are wrong.
>
>>There are Swedish immigrants that did. That is the subtlety of her
>>flawed argument, she wants the rest of the world to give credit to
>>sweden from what she has not proof.
>
> If she hasn't got proof, then her arguments fail.

When has she ever conceded that she has no proof, and that a given argument
of hers therefore fails?

>>
>>You agreed in fact, No 77 ships of King Haakon, you agree no food
>>culture returned to sweden. What she is saying would be the same as
>>the Japanese government for discovering the new world, because
>>someone in a boat that got blown off course 20,000 years ago managed
>>to survive and procreate. To clarify the issue which you obviously
>>did not understand. Did the swedish government give Leif Erikson a
>>grant to go chop wood in New Foundland? Where is the bill for the
>>inscription of the KRS, certainly we would see that these norwegians
>>and goths were on the payroll.
>
> I have not noticed that Inger has ever claimed that the Norse ever
> 'discovered' the new world except in terms of their own limited
> knowledge.

LOL. That's one claim that might even be supportable.

> Don't you remember me citing possible evidence that
> pre-germanic/norse knew of the new world 1300 BC?
>
> Think Peterborough inscription.
>
> I don't know who really discovered the new world except that his name,
> perhaps, might have been 'ugh'.

Discovery, per se, is pretty much immaterial, and is not what the point of
Inger's posts are. It's the impact and influence post discovery with which
she's concerned.

>>
>>> It doesn't seem to me that Inger was trying to say that the
>>> Norse were superior to the native americans.
>>
>>Really, and then if no history exists of the grandious Swedish
>>contribution to early American history, then obvious she is elluding
>>to prehistory, the most important prehistoric impact was that of the
>>waves that came from asia, not sweden, and the impact persists today.
>>She was inferring that if she could come up with her 'special' data
>>that spain and england should be pushed aside, Swedens impact was
>>supreme. OK so that is a supremist opinion.
>
> She is quite right that if she could come up with her special data
> that Spain and England could (not should) be pushed aside. Of course
> that is in terms of the rights of 'discoverers' in14th~15th century
> europe. This is probably utterly meaningless in todays terms.
>
>>> Rightly or wrongly,
>>> she is merely trying to say that they were there.
>>
>>Why is she arguing with us, everyone admits that the norse made it to
>>the new world, they might have even escaped in small numbers to the
>>new world, there is no evidence that the contribution was significant
>>in altering the culture, so to claim that it might supercede the
>>impact of the British or Spanish is wrong to the point of being
>>supremist. Not only is she claiming that the role was signicant, but
>>that it supercedes the founding role of other peoples.
>
> Well, this is an interesting logical point. We know what the culture
> of NA was when it was found by the early post-Columbian explorers. We
> also know from archaeology some aspects of what the culture was before
> Columbus. However, we know very little of the factors which went into
> making the culture what is was then.

Nice bluff. List three aspects of NA culture found by the early
post-Columbian explorers that differed from the culture that existed
pre-Columbus.

> It can be argued that if x000
> norse moved into NA in the 15th century we would expect to see the
> following changes... . However most such arguments use the current
> status quo as a base line. What we don't know is whether or not the
> position of the current baseline has been influenced by an
> unrecognised influx of 15th century norse. Nor do we know, if such an
> influx actually occurred, what the baseline would have been in the
> absence of the influx. We could very well be looking now at the result
> of a norse influx some 500~600 years ago.
>
> A number of people, including Barry fell and Gloria Farley (Uggh -
> double Uggh!) have cited examples which might be evidence of
> pre-Columbian contact with NA. Some of these are undoubtedly rubbish
> but it does not follow that all are.

"Might be evidence" only in the hearts and minds of true believers such as
yourself, who have no real understanding of the subject matter.

>>
>>> That Philip's
>>> rejection of her has little to do with facts is indicated when
>>> he wrote " I said about cryptoracism and ethnocentrism. We were
>>> looking for a motivation and we seem to have found it."
>>
>>Correct, and Tom found even more evidence.
>>
>>> I don't think repeated use of such arguments has any place in
>>> this news group.
>>
>>I am not putting out misinformation and then using that as leverage
>>to alter history in my favor, or to make the point that if my
>>facts were accepted I could then look down on other people.
>
> You are putting out misinformation in that you attribute the
> motivation of people whose ideas or questions you don't like to
> racism. It would be better for all of us if we dealt with arguments on
> their merits rather than their possible motivation.

Nope. He is spot on with respect to Inger E. Johansson.
>
>
>
>
> Eric Stevens
>
Steve
--
The above posting is neither a legal opinion nor legal advice,
because we do not have an attorney-client relationship, and
should not be construed as either. This posting does not
represent the opinion of my employer, but is merely my personal
view. To reply, delete _spamout_ and replace with the numeral 3


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Why only crap in this NG? (was Wolter claims ...)
    ... >>> opinions as to the ancient activities of the Norse. ... Native americans are not red, ... >>culture returned to sweden. ... >>that spain and england should be pushed aside, Swedens impact was ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Why only crap in this NG? (was Wolter claims ...)
    ... >> opinions as to the ancient activities of the Norse. ... Native americans are not red, ... >culture returned to sweden. ... >that spain and england should be pushed aside, Swedens impact was ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Classical antiquity to the Middle Ages: Continuity or Discontinuity?
    ... culture was being added in, and we have a period where the syntheses of ... German, ROman, and Christian is being worked out. ... have production of literature, the construction of buildings, etc. ... Some evidence rather than the fallacy of false analogy that follows below would be more welcome. ...
    (soc.history.ancient)
  • Re: REPOST: Re: Siberian Arctic site dated to 27,000 BP
    ... 24 kya and to not find something before 24 kya. ... Go back and look at the post in the meaning of Zero and All. ... result in a specific diminution of the evidence of their existence. ... to late paleolithic culture. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: REPOST: Re: Siberian Arctic site dated to 27,000 BP
    ... 24 kya and to not find something before 24 kya. ... Go back and look at the post in the meaning of Zero and All. ... result in a specific diminution of the evidence of their existence. ... to late paleolithic culture. ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)