Re: Why only crap in this NG? (was Wolter claims ...)

On Sun, 29 May 2005 11:56:15 GMT, Philip Deitiker
<Donevenask@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>Eric Stevens <eric.stevens@xxxxxxxxx> says in
>news:2a0j91d06rom3r3t857pig77qrskee5ib6@xxxxxxx:
>
>>>I am pointing out her racism. You didn't get the meaning of the
>>>other thread, it is not an issue of being racist, its an issue
>>>of continuing a racist expression even after it is pointed out
>>>that it is that.
>>
>> That it is racist, is your opinion. That your objection is
>> racist, is mine, and you have supplied the evidence.
>
>Your protest, however, shallow suits your pattern of behavior in this
>group.
>
>> Do you think it would not be better to discuss these on the
>> basis of the facts of the matter rather than the allegations
>> which can be slung backwards and forwards?
>
>Oh NOW you bring this up deary, you should bring to the madams
>doorstep.
>
>"
> In what way would it affect YOU if you had to admit that
> the Swedes and the Norwegians not only were active during
> the Migration Age up to end of Viking Age in Europe but
> also had more impact on the North American History then
> what the later arriving Brits, French and Spainards
> officially given them credit for?
>"
>
>See, because if I was going to pick and ethnocentric fight
>I might say the above.

But that is a perfectly logical remark by Inger. Right now it is
generally accepted that the Swedes and Norwegians were generally
inactive in the migration age, had no significant presence in NA at
the time and hence can have had no impact on NA history compared with
that the later Brits, French and Spaniards officially give them credit
for. However, if it can be shown that, contrary to present belief, the
Swedes and Norwegians were active in NA then it follows that they must
have had more impact on NA history compared with that the later Brits,
French and Spaniards officially give them credit for. This is simply a
logical conclusion which hangs on whether or not the Swedes and
Norwegians were active in NA.
>
>> Either the norse did what Inger claimed, or they didn't.
>
>I don't seen the norse mentioned above in her paragraph.
>She is talking about Norwegians and Swedes past the viking age
>and North American History.

Norse is simpler to write than Norwegians and Swedes
>
>> Not one of these matters will be resolved by arguing about
>> racism whether perceived, real or imaginary.
>
>Eric, Inger has got 80% of the people in this group railing at her
>not because of what she says, but how she says it. You can't have
>someone provocating a fight and then say well geeze, someone labeling
>IT for what IT is a racist.

Inger's style of presenting her arguments earns her a fair proportion
of what she gets. However, IMHO labelling her a 'racist' for her
historical beliefs is going too far, especially when your own
objections smack of racism.

>> The best way to deal with perceived racist arguments is to stick
>> with the facts. I agree that it is difficult when people insist
>> in arguing in racist terms. I would be happier if you stopped
>> using 'racist' or 'racism' as a debating card. This is a 'sci'
>> group after all.
>
>That is your opinion, in every instance I see her use this
>mode of argument, I am going to point it out, for if nothing else
>her fellow Swede can see what their society is producing.

Fine, but you have to realise that every time you start trying to
counter someone's argument as to who did what by making value
judgements about which ethnic group (race) made the most valuable
contribution to the history of the country you are entering into
potentially racist arguments.

It doesn't matter to the resolution of the question of the historical
role of the Norse in NA whether or not " An ancient sled dog on a sled
team strolling across the canadian ice deserves more credit for the
discovery of american than 'your' sweden." This discussion should not
be about Brownie points. It should be about what actually happened.
>
>Let us go back through the information as it is being presented.
>Somewhere around 1350 things started to change for Greenland.
>There were years of extremely cold winter weather that cause sea ice
>to wander further south than the previous 200 years, we have that
>from icelandic records. Ships that sailed from iceland to greenland
>or from norway to greenland were forced to turn back because of
>condition, then the reports from ~1360 that the western colony had
>been abandonded and within 100 years the eastern colony had been
>abandoned. The archaeological reports show a shift in diet, declining
>height, decreased bone density, etc. The interpretation is clear.
>
> Inger asserts that
>A. The colony was not in decline, its population was growing, to 3500
>inds by 1456, 1500 higher than that estimated by the literature.
>
>B. That these 3500 individuals, despite loosing the western
>settlement did not decline with climate ,even by 1456.
>
>C. That these 3500 individuals transformed the New World making it
>somehow more suitible for european discovery.
>
>and then
>
>"
> In what way would it affect YOU if you had to admit that
> the Swedes and the Norwegians not only were active during
> the Migration Age up to end of Viking Age in Europe but
> also had more impact on the North American History then
> what the later arriving Brits, French and Spainards
> officially given them credit for?
>"
>
>So Eric, it is not ONE wrong argument, she has built a whole
>house of cards on these arguments, and then she goes about trying
>to challenge the british and spanish history on these false
>arguments. It is not a simple case of a wrong argument, it is the
>case of repeated wrong arguments. In case the scheme has not been
>revealed to you, the quoted material is a rhetorical conclusion that
>leads A through C. That is ethnocentrism.

It is a fixation, but not necessarily a fixation motivated by
ethnocentrism. All of this came out of a discussion of the KRS many
years ago. The possible role of Ivar Bardson was being discussed and
with one exception the sources quoted by contributors had Ivar Bardson
heading to Greenland and never returning. The exception was that I
found an encyclopaedia refrence which referred to Ivar Bardson
returning to Sweden (or was it Norway?).

I made the comment to Inger that maybe the author of that article knew
something that the rest of us did not know. That was the start. Inger
was off looking for the evidence to justify the claim of Bardson's
survival, and she found it. One thing led to another and Inger is
still hunting down a trail which seems to have been largely unexplored
by others. What set Inger going was not ethnocentrism but scholastic
curiosity.
>
>Let us make it very clear.
> Columbus thought he was going to India, Not a new continent
> His choice of routes may have been known to the portuguese or the
> basque, it was not one taken by the norse.
> It was not until 100 years later did the Brits, French and Spainards
> make it back to Labrador [Reason- really bad weather in the
> arctic]
> The discovery of the New world was preceded by Marco Polos travels,
> the latin world was in conflict with the islamic world and they
> wanted trade routes to India for precious goods.
> The critical events in the discovery of the New World occurred in
> the eastern carribean and in Mexico city up to 1524. By 1524 the
> the fate of the New World was effectively sealed. At this point
> the interior of eastern North America (excluding meso america) had
> not been explored.
>
>There is no instance were you can say that precolumbian North
>American white 'tribes' except for the people on greenland.

I can't, but some of the early explorers did.
>
>Secondarily, as with the issue of skin color, there are white native
> americans, the asia population, some siberian groups have skin at
> least a couple shades whiter than mine. If you look at some of the
> tribes in british colombia and other parts of canada, you will find
> a great number of people have light colored skin. I consider the
> argument that non-iberian europeans settled before the spanish
> racist because it is ignorant of skin color variation in the new
> world. The Ainu, who share alot of afinity to native americans
> of the western america, have light skin and many european
> characteristics, easily arctic groups from siberia of diverse
> origin have made it to the new world. >20% of Eskimo genes show
> recent origin from NEastern european (uralic) region.
>
>Making a claim about 'your' peoples accomplishment in another peoples
>land because of ignorance of skin color variation is interpretable as
>racism.

If skin colour was the only link, you might be right, but even then
the claim of racism is arguable.
>
>Third, the use of tainted resources. The argument that Red Indians
>versus White Indians is indication that some indians came from Norway
>is founded in a poor historical analysis to begin with. Red is slang,
>most native americans do not have anywhere near red skin, it is the
>anglos that get red skin when burned by the sun. Native americans
>tend to have more yellow pigments that europeans and when the tan
>their skin turns brown in color. Therefore the discussion of color
>and peoples that she bases this 'lost tribe' on is tainted by poor
>descriptors.
>
>So Eric let us put this together.
>
>The use or fabrication of incorrect information in support of
>a ethnocentric based challenge to history, the use of tainted
>information that relies on racial qualifiers, the postulation that
>the contribution of ones home country is somehow greater than
>everyone elses, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Apart from the fact that I think you are wrong about Inger's
ethnocentrism (but what about your own?), I think this kind of
argument has no place in a scientific discussion.
>
>And here is how you are most wrong.
>
>Her evidence in terms of facts are not presented to be discussed
>individually, her evidence in terms of facts are presented to support
>a conclusion she has already decided, and therefore the discussion
>of facts, as we have repeatedly see, has no affect on the propensity
>to present more misleading information. It is not the matter of one
>innocent mistake, it is the matter of a pattern of abuse in this
>group with misstatements in support of an ethnocentric agenda. Call
>it what you will, but for me, it is clear that it is racist.
> Do you remember the discussion about the VM. THis is a science
>group, what she effectively said to Dr. Towe is that no matter how
>good his science, it does not trump her belief that the VM is
>authentic, the belief of authenticity is a matter that it exists, it
>pays no mind what so ever to the possibility of fraud.

Surely you are not arguing that fixity of belief is due only to racism
or ethnocentrism?
>
>What could you possibly offer in her defense that denies Several
>years of posting the same positions? Nothing she presented in the
>last few weeks is any different than what she was posting 2 years
>ago, its not a mistake, its a pattern. Racism is a pattern of
>behavior of ehtnocentric and discriminatory arguments that remains
>unchanged with critique or attempts as inspection (failed
>introspection).

Others pick holes in Inger's arguments very effectively without
finding it necessary to repeatedly call her a racist. Why is it you
cannot?

I've made my point. I would rather not have to continue this
discussion.




Eric Stevens

.

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