Re: Kensington runestone in the Scandinavian press

Tom McDonald <tmcdonald2672@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> says in
news:T0Hpe.14838$mZ2.8653@xxxxxxxx:

> m_zalar@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>>
>> Alaca wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>>In the light of the story on the stone,
>>>it is not the most obvious place.
>>>
>>
>>
>> It was on my first vist to the hill where I first began to
>> think the runestone story might be true. I had done a number
>> of military history papers (primarily on fortifications) during
>> my college years. This was a nearly perfect natural defensive
>> position, and reminded me of an overlarge motte (as in the
>> motte and baily type of castle). There are several distinct
>> advantages of the location which a band in hostile territory
>> would find advantageous. The hill is steep sided, providing a
>> strong postion in case of attack; it is surrounded (or nearly
>> surrounded) by water, making a direct assault difficult; and it
>> has unobstructed lines of sight in all directions so that
>> surprise attack would be impossible. In short a group under
>> the conditions given on the stone, would have found this
>> location irresistible for setting up a campsite.
>
> For a fortified campsite with fighters enough to repel
> attackers, you may be right.
>
> However, given the situation where Indians (or other
> Europeans;
> let's dream big) are present in strength enough to massacre 10
> of their number and force the rest to flee, the very things that
> make the location a good one for defense would also make it a
> trap.
>
> Recall that the technological advantage later Europeans had
> against American natives didn't exist at this time. Iron and
> steel weapons would be superior in some ways; but stone-tipped
> arrows, stone knives, stone and wooden clubs, etc., would have
> been a match for them except in the closest of close combat, in
> a situation where the Norse were awake, armed and ready. If
> taken unawares, their weapons would have made nice trophies.
>
> The native folk would have the advantage of knowing the
> ground.
> You talk about clear fields of vision. However, that would not
> have been true for people who tracked and stalked skittish game
> for a living. We've all seen topo maps of the vicinity; it's not
> at all devoid of places one couldn't see from the hill.
>
> There would also not have been any real vision at night,
> except
> under significant moonlight. Even then, nervous Norse, like
> people today, would have often seen movement where there was
> none, and missed it where there was. This would have favored
> stealthy approaches by Indian hunters. An attack under those
> conditions would have largely negated whatever superiority the
> Norse might have had in arms and armor.

The Kranakua at Matagorda apparently tormented the french for nights
on end, getting close enough to make pot shots but basically engaging
in psychological warfare against the unprepared french, trapping them
inside their fortifications. I am sure the Kranks thought it was all
great fun.
The most effective place to be is on the water moving, that
advantage being you move out of one groups territory before the next
group knows you are coming. Impressions alone, but that major
waterways were generally uncontested (probably because of their use
in trading).
Natives in the southwest frequented bowl shaped plateaus because
they had good observation points and could hide villages in the
depressed parts.

The other thing is that noone knows what the vegetation was like on
Runestone hill in 1362, it could have been heavily forested, making
any point of view less that tree top obstructed. From that point of
view personal opinion about what makes a good fortification in a
farming community is a moot point.
The flip side is that the region may have been a part of a manmade
fire ecology zone.

If I were under attack by native peoples as I penetrated deeper
into a continent, the risk of even more attacks would increase as a
function of distance I had traveled. It would suffice to learn about
fewer cultures and try to negotiate a peace, rather than traveling
deeper inland. Therefore if I had the ability to return from whence I
came, that would be the route. So that there appearance on a hill in
a land of small potentially trapping lakes is not wise. The best
route is on watercraft moving with the flow down river. Traveling
south and east from the red river will not get one to siberia. lol.
A more likely scenario for a hoard of 1362 norse is that the
misjudged something and they lost their watercraft. Having past
through the territory of a dangerous indigeonous people they were
probably fleeing that people when they were cut-off and surrounded.
In that case the runestone would have been their last act.


--
Philip
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
____Groups_____
Mol Anthro http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DNAanthro/
Pal Anthro http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Paleoanthro/
Arch. Aux http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sciarchauxilliary/
Gliadin Sci http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/GliadinScience/

____Sites_____
Mol. Evol. Hominids http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/
Evol. of Xchrom. http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/xlinked.htm
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Kensington runestone in the Scandinavian press
    ... It was on my first vist to the hill where I first began to think the ... attack would be impossible. ... situation where the Norse were awake, ... Indians' POV, ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Race report (boring more than riveting, Im sure).
    ... douche-bag attack. ... to and half-way up the hill, ... better climbers can get a draft advantage and then attack. ... I pulled to and up half of the short steep climb, ...
    (rec.bicycles.racing)
  • Re: Geology Question (KRS related)
    ... swampy or boggy. ... I would not conclude that a hill of glacial till would be boggy. ... swamp or bog was based on several photographs I have seen. ... The exact place where the stone was found had ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Kensington runestone in the Scandinavian press
    ... >> Co Rd 15 - if you continue west, you will go down the hill on which ... >> the hill to the south of Runestone hill, and to the north of Co Rd ... >> attack would be impossible. ... >> side of the River where the 10 men were attacked and the boats stolen ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Cadence update 2
    ... The occasional sprint, for example blasting up a short hill, might clobber you for a minute or two but is satisfying when you do them, even more satisfying when you repeat a month later and its so much easier and helps to build strength. ... It is quite critical that you're in exactly the right gear and you are settled into a power stroke rhythm _at the bottom, before the climb._ This can most easily be described as 'piling on the coal a handful of seconds before the hill starts'. ... This time of year I do 14mph ish to the pub and 13mph ish back for perhaps a 20 mile round trip. ... And since I've spent a fortune in beer to achieve my figure I've no intention of following outrageous suggestions of losing 1.5 pounds let alone 1.5 STONE! ...
    (uk.rec.cycling)