Re: Kensington runestone in the Scandinavian press


"Eric Stevens" <eric.stevens@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:d09pa1dn498gorkvhrif4q7er1b5kn0e2h@xxxxxxxxxx
> On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 08:29:05 -0400, "Steve Marcus"
> <smarcus_spamout_@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Eric Stevens" <eric.stevens@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>news:1tuna1lanpe9adlc5plu3g1lcsdjdq6p89@xxxxxxxxxx
>>> On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:46:04 -0400, "Steve Marcus"
>>> <smarcus_spamout_@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Eric Stevens" <eric.stevens@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>news:4n9ka15ovtpeh7pi7ffq2c7cmqurf4g31o@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:25:05 +0200, Erik Hammerstad
>>>>> <egeha.is.all.you.need@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Eric Stevens wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:27:07 +0200, Erik Hammerstad
>>>>>>> <egeha.is.all.you.need@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Eric Stevens wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 23:12:32 +0200, Erik Hammerstad
>>>>>>>>><egeha.is.all.you.need@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>m_zalar@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>><snip>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Let me suggest a scenario. The group believes they are in Asia,
>>>>>>>>>>>somewhere near Cathay (as is suggested in the Mercator/Dee
>>>>>>>>>>>letter).
>>>>>>>>>>>They have followed the Red River inland to the first set of
>>>>>>>>>>>waterfalls,
>>>>>>>>>>>near what is now Fergus Falls, MN, camping on the south side of
>>>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>>River where the 10 men were attacked and the boats stolen or
>>>>>>>>>>>destroyed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>And still no explanantion for how they brought boats (did a knorr
>>>>>>>>>>carry more than one?) from the Hudson Bay to Lake Winnipeg. A
>>>>>>>>>>short description of the presumed route (in reverse):
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>They could easily have built their own boats. There are precedents
>>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>>this.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Not easily and not shortly. And where and when sre the precedents?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know about the norse but there are a number of examples
>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>> my part of the world ranging from sealers building small ships in
>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>> their mother ship came back to pick them up, ship wrecked dailors
>>>>>>> building both small craft and ships of 50'. An old man I knew, when
>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>> was young at the end of the 19th century, built a small boat every
>>>>>>> two weeks with his brother. These were 12' to 20' long and were used
>>>>>>> for fishing and general transport around the sounds on the South
>>>>>>> Island of New Zealand.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The KRS demonstrates that the carver had a competent set of chisels
>>>>>>> (and please, someone, don't trot out that old canard about them
>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>> standard 'inch' sizes. They are not) and presumably the rest of the
>>>>>>> ship's carpentering tools. A ship's carpenter could certainly build
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> boat if he had to.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Building a recue boat from wreckage to sail to safety is something
>>>>>>quite different to building a boat or boats from fresh materials
>>>>>>on the shore to trek 1000 miles inland up a river with strong
>>>>>>currents, falls and rapids.
>>>>>
>>>>> The boats I have in mind were all built from locally available timber.
>>>>> The only difference from the situation of 14th century norse may be in
>>>>> the more recent builders having pit saws as well as adzes and side
>>>>> axes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So you have not provided any precedents, sorry.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I was not relying on boats built from wreckage. I was referring to
>>>>> people who cut down trees, reduced them to planks and timbers and
>>>>> built a boat from them.
>>>>
>>>>Amazing!
>>>>
>>>>Why build a boat? Well, they were in hostile territory, far from their
>>>>"ship(s)" in the "inland sea", and needed to escape. So naturally, they
>>>>engage in a round of felling trees, reducing the trees to planks and
>>>>timbers, and building a boat (just one?; would it have been large enough
>>>>to
>>>>transport all of them while being small enough to navigate the available
>>>>water system?)
>>>>
>>>>This certainly seems to be an illogical alternative to simply hauling
>>>>their
>>>>tushies out the vicinity at a the highest possible rate of speed. Of
>>>>course, when speculating in defense of a good "alternative history"
>>>>story,
>>>>you never did see a need to rely upon logic, did you Eric?
>>>
>>> How about relying on a URL for but one example?
>>>
>>> http://www.teara.govt.nz/1966/S/ShipsFamous/EarlyShipbuilding/en
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Of course, when speculating in defense of a good "alternative history"
>>story, you never did see a need to rely upon logic, did you Eric? It is
>>posts such as your reply above that clearly demonstrate that you neither
>>thoroughly read nor thoroughly process posts which undercut your position.
>>Instead you exhibit some form of denial; I suspect that it's mostly
>>intentional.
>>
>>So let's try again. My post was premised this way: From what can be
>>gleaned from the various translations of the KRS, the members of party of
>>Norse in Kensington were in hostile territory ...
>
> That's your assumption (1)

*My assumption*?? That's the assumption clearly conveyed by the text of the
KRS, by what little history between the Norse and the "skraelings" of North
America has come down to us, and by the actual circumstance of their
allegedly being inland in 14th century North America.

>
>> far from their "ship(s)" in
>>the "inland sea", had just discovered that a number of their comrades had
>>been murdered, ...
>
> Nope. They were dead. That they were murdered is your assumption (2).

*My assumption*?? "We went fishing one day. After we came home, I found 10
men red with blood and death/dead. Ave Maria Deliver us from evils!"
That's Nielsen's 2001 translation. Let's not pretend that you can read this
as disease related; what disease do you know of that acts that quickly? Did
the Norse not have a word for "disease"? Why would those who went fishing
not have symptoms; indeed, if due to disease, why weren't they dead too?

>
>> ... and seemingly were in fear of their own lives. They needed
>>to escape.
>
> That's your assumption (3)

*My assumption*?? That's the assumption of everyone who has discussed the
KRS text in every discussion of the KRS text that has ever been brought to
the attention of this newsgroup. You, who purport to have special knowledge
and to be a "maven" re the KRS, and Mike Zalar, who _is_ a "maven" re the
KRS, have never, ever stated otherwise. Until you needed to do so now to
escape the logic swamp you managed to tangle yourself in.

>
>>And you have suggested that instead of just hauling their
>>respective tushies back towards this "inland sea" at the highest rate of
>>speed they could obtain or trying to build themselves some sort of
>>impregnable fortress like position so that they could survive until help
>>arrived, they instead engaged in a round of felling trees, reducing the
>>trees to planks and timbers, and building a boat (just one?;
>
> I didn't suggest they escaped by boat. That was someone else's idea.
> All I did was pointed out that it was possiblethat they built a boat
> and that such a thing things has been done by others in the past.

Indeed! Well, it seems to me from the attributions above that you wrote
this: "I don't know about the norse but there are a number of examples
around my part of the world ranging from sealers building small ships in
case their mother ship came back to pick them up, ship wrecked dailors
building both small craft and ships of 50'. An old man I knew, when he was
young at the end of the 19th century, built a small boat every two weeks
with his brother. These were 12' to 20' long and were used for fishing and
general transport around the sounds on the South Island of New Zealand."?
It clearly introduces the idea of escape by reason of the discussion of ship
wrecked sailors.

>
>> would it have
>>been large enough to transport all of them while being small enough to
>>navigate the available water system?). (Let me add that these Norse also
>>seemed to have found the time to locate a suitable stone and inscribe
>>their
>>tale, but, naturally, they left off the tidbit about building a boat or
>>two...)
>
> We can solve that problem by assuming they carved the stone before
> they decided to build a boat. But no, they wouldn't build a boat with
> blunt chisels. Maybe they didn't have room on the stone to mention the
> boat?
>>
>>My conclusion was that asserting that they built one or more boats was
>>wildly illogical.
>
> Who is asserting?

You were. Look up the definition of the word "asserting."

>>
>>Now please explain how the story you linked regarding of a party of men
>>left
>>behind for almost a year (without any mention of murder, hostile natives,
>>etc.), obviously with the equipment necessary to build houses and a 60 to
>>70
>>ton ship, has anything at all to do with my post, or, with the apparent
>>facts implicated by the text of the KRS that would have led up to your
>>speculation that the KRS party built boats to escape. (If you don't
>>understand that it's the escape part of the saga that's in question,
>>re-read
>>the post paying careful attention to the attributions.)
>
> I thought it was the ability to build a boat that was in question.
> Never mind. Every time I answer one of your questions, you cahange the
> question. [With apologies to '1066 and all that'.]

Who cares about the ability to build a boat in the context of this
discussion, unless that ability is being tied in to the issue of the actions
of the authors of the KRS?

>
>
>
> Eric Stevens
>
Steve
--
The above posting is neither a legal opinion nor legal advice,
because we do not have an attorney-client relationship, and
should not be construed as either. This posting does not
represent the opinion of my employer, but is merely my personal
view. To reply, delete _spamout_ and replace with the numeral 3


.

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