Re: KRS: Final thoughts

"Steve Marcus" <smarcus_spamout_@xxxxxxx> says in
1HPve.68303$Fv.30376@lakeread01:">news:1HPve.68303$Fv.30376@lakeread01:

>
> "Eric Stevens" <eric.stevens@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:hafvb19853u1pus3oqqtmr70q7799eoegp@xxxxxxxxxx
>> On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:32:54 GMT, Philip Deitiker
>> <Donevenask@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>>"m_zalar@xxxxxxxxxxx" <m_zalar@xxxxxxxxxxx> says in
>>>news:1119849510.496410.95450@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:
>>>
>>>> Please note that my argument was based merely on the accepted
>>>> fact (by scholars) that an exploratory trip beyond Greenland
>>>> took place at the time the KRS was supposedly carved. At no
>>>> other point in the history of Greenland (excepting perhaps
>>>> the early voyages to Vinland) when such a trip is mentioned.
>>>
>>>This has been discussed before here, there were trips beyond
>>>greenland, but evidence for a successful trip launched from
>>>England or Norway is unconvincing.
>>>
>>>The closest point on Baffin Island to Kensington is about 63'N
>>>and 70'W. Kensington is 47'N and 96'W. That is a difference of
>>>16'N and 26'W. Obviously at the latitude a degree is about
>>>2/3rds that at the equator. A distance of 1600 miles. 800 miles
>>>over water, and 800 miles overland to minnisota, total, round
>>>trip 3200 miles, over water, though icey seas, upstreams and
>>>rivers, through hostile territory.
>>>
>>>The accounts of Inventio Fortunata that I have seen suggests it
>>>did exist, but that it was a collection of stories and favored
>>>myths of the time.
>>
>> These words will come back to haunt you. :-(
>
> The words are not Philip's words. They are the words of the
> person who wrote the paper that Philip linked.
>
>>
>>>There was some discussion of the Astrolabe.
>>> Many of the accounts of the greenland visit are derived from
>>> cnoyen
>>>in different directions, and so the connection that I see
>>>between the greenlandic voyage and Inventio Fortunata are tied
>>>through Cnoyen, and cnoyen is no better than a 3rd hand
>>>account. I don't think this can be touted as evidence of
>>>anything other than that people wrote and told myths in the
>>>14th century.
>>>
>>>As far as I know this is the most comprehensive estimation of
>>>the inventio fortunata.
>>>
>>>http://www.eaudrey.com/myth/Places/Mercator%20Article.pdf
>>
>> I expect to educate you (if that is possible) when the book I
>> have ordered arrives.
>
> LOL.
>>>
>>>"
>>>Mercator cites his authority for his delineation of the
>>>northern regions: the Itinerarium of a Flemish traveler named
>>>Jacobus Cnoyen (now lost); Cnoyen gave as his sources the Res
>>>gestae Arturi britanni (now lost), and a book written by an
>>>English Minorite, a mathematician from Oxford, who had traveled
>>>in the far north in 1360 and recorded what he saw; this work
>>>was called the Inventio fortunata, which also, (ironically, in
>>>light of its title) is lost. "
>>>Note, cnoyen may have never had a copy of the Inventio
>>>Fortunata, but relied either on a read of it, or on an account
>>>of the book. . . . . .
>>>"
>>>The persistence of the Inventio fortunata geography on maps
>>>for, say, 150 years is to some extent a testament to the esteem
>>>in which Mercator and Ortelius were held by other
>>>cartographers; it is also, I think, a testament to the great
>>>psychological and mythical power of the concept of the center.
>>>It was well-known that the North Pole was the true center of
>>>the earth, and the author of the Inventio fortunata gave an
>>>account of the geography that was so mythologically satisfying,
>>>that it continued to be believed or at least repeated well past
>>>the time when scholars and explorers knew that the account was
>>>false. "
>>>
>>>"
>>>The Inventio fortunata places a mountain at the Pole, and of
>>>course many sacred centers are mountains; a passage into the
>>>depths of the earth is another common feature of sacred
>>>centers. Moreover, the powerful flow of water from the four
>>>corners of the earth in through the rivers to the Pole, and
>>>there down a whirlpool, is the strongest possible confirmation
>>>and emphasis of the Pole's centrality, as strong almost as the
>>>thought of millions of Muslims facing Mecca from all corners of
>>>the earth five times a day in prayer. This role the North Pole
>>>plays in the circulation of the earth's waters gives the spot
>>>the global importance we expect of a sacred center.
>>
>> It's apity you have been following the wrong Yahoo groups.
>> Knowledgable people, without blinkers, are in the process of
>> slowly identifying the most probable actual site.
>>>"
>>> . . . .
>>>"
>>>The similarities between the Inventio fortunata and the
>>>Brahmanic Hindu and Buddhist conceptions of the northern polar
>>>regions of the earth should by now be obvious. Both place a
>>>large mountain at the Pole surrounded by four islands aligned
>>>as if to the four points of the compass. From the one mountain
>>>radiates the earth's magnetic field; the other is the pivot of
>>>the universe, and the home of the divine. And while the while
>>>the Inventio fortunata has the waters of the world's oceans
>>>flowing in towards the Pole from the four quarters and then
>>>down into the earth, the Buddhist conception has a large lake
>>>with four huge rivers flowing out to the four corners of the
>>>earth.
>>>"
>>>
>>>IOW the source of the inspiration might be from other legends.
>>>Think crusades.
>>>
>>>-or-
>>>
>>>"
>>>To attempt to argue that the Inventio fortunata was by some
>>>circuitous means derived from Buddhist conceptions of the
>>>northern polar regions would be at best a highly precarious
>>>undertaking.
>>
>> Which probably explains why even you don't quite have the
>> courage to undertake it.
>>
>> --- more blither snipped ----
>
> To date, meaning without the book that you have ordered which
> has not yet arrived, you have operated under the assumption that
> the second and third hand descriptions of the information
> allegedly contained in the Inventio Fortunata are accurate to
> the extent that they can be used to support such matters as the
> authenticity of the KRS, at least the voyage as described in the
> book as having been undertaken by the Minorite, etc. Leaving
> aside how you can be so certain of what is contained in a book
> which you haven't even received yet, (let alone read), one
> wonders why you simply cannot address the information contained
> in the paper linked by Philip using the knowledge of the
> Inventio that you already possess.

There is no effective response to the two papers I quoted from
because the books/Intenerarium are no longer present. It is
interesting that some many people could be familiar with the book,
that it contained interesting myths, and yet never survived in any
form.
But you are correct, stick to the point, It is extremely unlikely
to the point of being impossible, that a person trudging through the
heartland of minnesota in 1362 could have been handing off a version
of his book, written in England, given to the king, in Bergen in
1364.
But here again I stand behind my point of veiw that if the KRS is
authentic it probably was not written in the vicinity of kensington
which means that possibly its writers were not so far from a ship
worthy port. Since the proponents have dug their heals into
kensington, not worthy of a discussion here. Even so back to Bergen
in 1364 with king-read book in hand if one weighed anchor on the St.
Lawrence seaway in 1362 is a feat of 'magical arts'.

--
Philip
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Relevant Pages

  • Re: KRS: Final thoughts
    ... >> other point in the history of Greenland (excepting perhaps the ... >> early voyages to Vinland) when such a trip is mentioned. ... >greenlandic voyage and Inventio Fortunata are tied through Cnoyen, ... >earth is another common feature of sacred centers. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: KRS: Final thoughts
    ... >>> other point in the history of Greenland (excepting perhaps the ... >>> early voyages to Vinland) when such a trip is mentioned. ... >>greenlandic voyage and Inventio Fortunata are tied through Cnoyen, ... >>earth is another common feature of sacred centers. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: KRS: Final thoughts
    ... > other point in the history of Greenland (excepting perhaps the ... The accounts of Inventio Fortunata that I have seen suggests it did ... The Inventio fortunata places a mountain at the Pole, ... to have dealt with islands and perhaps ...
    (sci.archaeology)