Re: Wolter talk report



inger wrote:
>
> "Seppo Renfors" <Renfors@xxxxxxxxxx> skrev i meddelandet
> news:43354FC7.EDBE1419@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> > inger wrote:

[..]

> > > Yes but they were same event if it's him who forged it in 1520's. What
> > > better 'proof' for rights to claim that land, the land they lost, could
> have
> > > been put forward than writing down what he knew about the Tiundetaka
> voyage
> > > of 1355 to Fall 1363? The Tiundetaka voyage he knew well about.
> >
> > I see what you mean. Only I cannot agree that the 1520's scenario is
> > the case. As I said earlier, the stone does not support a former
> > "ownership" of land either. The major problem is, it is illogical *IF*
> > one was to consider a 1520's "forgery".
> >
> > The major logical points against your theory are:
> >
> > (A) Location - it is far too far inland and in a much too obscure
> > place to serve as "evidence". It could not be expected to be found
> > again.
> >
> > (B) the story itself - for a "land claim" it would require the
> > equivalent of the "National Flag stuck in the sand" but in words to be
> > believable.
> >
> > (C) You are missing the voyage to find the stone to prove the "land
> > claim" - in fact you are missing the land claim as a whole!
>
> No. I got that covered too. Only not told about it.
>
Then we cannot know about it, can we, and have nothing to support the
notion with.
> >
> > (D) A document in the King's vault/archive would be a far more
> > believable claim to territory. There is no need to travel to North
> > America to plant a rune stone, in order to claim it.
>
> That they had. But as you probably know King Christian ordered a voyage to
> retake l o s t l a n d..... What god would a paper in the King's vault in
> Denmark have out in the wild terrain of what later became Minnesota? The
> Norse Greenlander lived there up to 1490 when they moved to what later
> became Wisconsin's shore to the Lakes....

I assume you refer to either King Christian II or III of Denmark now.
Christian II was king of Denmark/Norway 1513-23 and Sweden 1520-23. So
at some point in 1520 there has been a "retaking of lost land" of
Sweden. Frederik I was King from 1523 - 1533. Christian III was sent
abroad in 1520, in company with Johan Rantzau, is true - only that
"abroad" was on the continent of Europe - where he made the
acquaintance of Martin Luther and became a strong follower of the
protestant version of religion (breaking the nexus with the Pope and
the "Tiundetaka"). The country was without a King because of that for
a year, and Christian III was not invited to take the throne till 1534
due to events described below.

In 1534 Lübeck entered and occupied the entire eastern part of Denmark
under the leadership of Count Christopher of Oldenburg. Christian III
companion, Johan Rantzau, put down some peasant rebellions, led by
Clement, in northern Jutland. He also defeated the Lübeck in 1535 at
the battle at Øksnebjerg. At about the same time a
Danish-Swedish-Prussian fleet, led by Peder Skram, beat Lübeck's fleet
at Svendborgsund. SO there is no question there was indeed a retaking
of land - but that was back home.

Due to his change in religion, the catholic bishops did not approve of
and had been against Christian being appointed King. So remove any
threat to his throne from that direction he had all the catholic
bishops in Denmark arrested on August 12, 1536. From that point on he
made no more waves as a King and co-operated the privy council.
Christian III died on January 1, 1559.

There really was no "window of opportunity" to present a claim for
North America from any "King Christian". You have a change of Kings
during the critical periods you point to, that prevents your claim
being plausible. Right smack bang in the middle of the needed
"discovery" time frame you refer to C III was at war at home and would
not have had designs on foreign lands - or the money to pursue it
with. In any event the episode with Lübeck demonstrates the way "lands
claims" were made in those days.

[..]


--
SIR - Philosopher unauthorised
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The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
misled.
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.

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