Re: 'Vikings' in Mexican Mythology? Criticised by Own [Nahuatl] Scholars.

Eric Stevens wrote: 
On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 20:26:47 -0800, Tom McDonald
<tmcdonald2672@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


Eric Stevens wrote:

On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 15:32:25 GMT, "Guess Where?"
<way_over_there@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:



http://www.texancultures.utsa.edu/publications/exploration/chapte
reight.htm

"Juan de Torquemada does record a Native American story of such
a landing-very close to Pánuco. He says that Mexican Indians met
people from northern regions-white, fair-haired, bearded, finely
built-who arrived wearing clothes of dark sacking, open in
front, without cowls, cut out round at the neck, with short,
wide sleeves. " 


I have an english translation of 'Westward before Columbus' by Kare
Prytz. On page 164 he wrote:

Begin quote
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
Fortune tellers and astrologers reminded people that a white man who
had once visited Mexico left during a <<reed year>>. And they knew, or
believed, that he would also return during a <<reed year>>. The year
1519, when Cortéz began his conquest, was also a <<reed year>>. The
foreigner who had once visited the Indians was not an ordinary man,
but an invincible god! He was the mighty god Quetzalcoatl. The ruler,
Montezuma, and his viceroys became very frightened.

The following is a summary based on Grimberg's Menneskenes liv og
historie [<<The Life and History of Man>>] with Indians about the
legend of this white man.

In legends he was described as a strong man with light skin, blue
eyes, and a big beard. This last part is particularly startling,
because the Indians themselves have insignificant growth of beard. He
also wore a big and special hat. Furthermore this white man was said
to have lived among the Aztecs for a while and had taught them new
ways of farming and building, as well as how to work with metals. He
had also told them that there was only one god, the god of compassion
and love, and he had ordered the Indians to stop all human sacrifices.
He left in a long boat, that looked like a snake, and with a stem
formed as a falcon's head. It was built <<like the feathers of a
bird>>, with boards overlapping. It seems to be an accurate
description of the characteristic clinker-built Norse long ship. Even
the name is reminiscent—the most famous of all Norwegian long ships
was called <<Ormen Lange>> [The Long Snake] and was owned by Olav
Trygvasson.

When he left the land headed east, he said he would be back. And that
he, or his god, would be their master. The words are reminiscent of
those often heard during the time when Scandinavia was christened,
three—four hundred years earlier.

The first Aztec king ascended the throne around 1370, about the time
metal work first began to appear in Mexico.3 It is striking that the
stranger also taught them a new way to cultivate crops. In the 1300s
the Aztecs began using <<floating fields>> that multiplied their
yields in the tropical climate.

Researchers believe that the stranger visited several lands in Central
America.4 This new method of cultivation—which is probably none other
than the floating islands—was in use in other central American
countries before it reached Mexico. The stranger may have learned it
there before he encountered the Aztecs.

The <<reed year>> when this happened, was 1363. It could not have been
the next <<reed year>>, 1467, because Montezuma said that several
generations had passed since the visit took place.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
End quote

Doug posted a wonderful link. It's worth reading when discussing any stories related from one culture to another; and then re-told, often centuries later, by people who may not even be fully aware even of the 'familiar' culture of, say, the Spanish fellow who wrote it down.

What do you make of the story Prytz relates? It sounds like a game of 'telephone' to me.

<snip> 


Most of it can be classified as the usual (possibly) muddled mythology
but the reference to the "new way to cultivate crops" with the
implication that this was the use of "floating islands" See
http://www.geocities.com/wasicugohome/chinampa.html

I am not sure how new this new way to cultivate crops was. For many centuries (or longer; I don't have the necessary refs ready to hand), much of Maya civilization was fed by raised bed agriculture, in which canals were cut through low-lying land, and the weeds and tiny fish in the canals were dredged out and spread on top of the fields as fertilizer. This was extremely wide-spread, and provided enormous harvests, IIRC up to three times a year.

The Aztecs, limited as they were to crap land surrounded by water, appear to have made raised fields by making them on rafts. Now, it may be that there is some other, revolutionary element to chinampas agriculture; but to me, it looks remarkably like the kind of adjustments the Aztecs made to make lemonade out of the lemons they were initially dealt.

Two questions occur to me. First, is the the date of the adoption of
'chinampa' agriculture sharply defined and, if so, what was it?

As above; I don't have my books handy, and the little I've googled seems to show no certain dates. I suspect that it's a question of lumpers vs. splitters; those who see chinampas as a logical extension of raised bed agriculture, and those who see them as categorically different for some reason.

Are
there any norse sources which independently confirm this story?


	I'll let you chase down that particular rabbit hole.

.

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