Re: question?

Eric Stevens wrote: 
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 18:04:57 -0500, "Steve Marcus"
<smarcus_spamout_@xxxxxxx> wrote:



"Eric Stevens" <eric.stevens@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:n94nn15g81h924hh4dush1qu4hrrc49e54@xxxxxxxxxx

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 05:19:24 -0500, "Steve Marcus"
<smarcus_spamout_@xxxxxxx> wrote:



"Eric Stevens" <eric.stevens@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:vmsln1pn4mjrjpvr6to6lo5gjng05pct5k@xxxxxxxxxx

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:21:52 -0000, "Dylan Sung"
<dylanwhs.tsktsktsk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


In other words -- no, Inger, there is no reason to suppose that the
"1000-year-old Norse artifacts" are anything other than comic book
science
fiction.


Perhaps she could get published better as a writer of viking related
fiction. I'm sure someone's irony meter will be clanging overtime.


The ancient cuts by an iron axe in a tree have been discussed
previously in this news group. Irrespective of whether the dating is
right or wrong, they did exist.

A fact that is immaterial absent evidence that the dating is not wrong. Who
has that burden of proof, I wonder ...

From my archives 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=

From: Renia <renia@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval,sci.archaeology,soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Medieval Axemen in New York
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 18:24:05 +0200

--- snip ----

Martin Reboul wrote:


"Renia" <renia@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:cmboga$fqv$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


With all the discussions of early settlers in North America, I thought I
wuold contribute this for your delectation. It refers to Lyons, in Wayne
County, New York.
http://www.rootsweb.com/~nywayne/history/1841gaz.html

From "Historical Collections of the State of New York" 

"In 1834, a white oak tree was cut in this town, two miles west of
Lyons, measuring 4 1/2 feet in diameter. In the body of the tree, about
3 1/2 feet from the ground, was found a large and deep cutting by an
axe, severing the heart of the tree, and exhibiting with perfect
distinctness the marks of the axe at the present time. The whole cavity
thus created by the original cutting was found to be encased by 460
years' growth of the wood, i.e., it was concealed beneath 460 layers of
the timber, which had grown over it subsequently to the cutting.
Consequently the original cutting must have been in the year 1372, or
118 years before the discovery of America by Columbus. The tree was cut
by James P. Bartle of Newark, a forwarding merchant, and the timber used
by him in building the boat Newark, now belonging to the Detroit line.
The cutting was at least six inches deep."


Undoubtedly the final proof that Vikings must have been around at the time - who
else could possibly have done it? The naysayers will no doubt claim it might
have been a Red Indian, but if it was, he surely bought his axe from a Viking
saleamen. Well done! 

 --- snip ----

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Based upon what's quoted above from the book, why would you have ruled out a stone axe and posted that the axe was iron? Additionally, why is it beyond the realm of possibility that a 200 year old Norse axe came into the possession of a Native American as trade goods, or "spoils of war"?


I know, as presumably did the original author,

Boy, I didn't remember this as being such a loosey-goosey affair. How do you know what the original author knew about non-metallic axes? Additionally, this is at the very least a second-hand story; and by the structure of the story, it is likely to be third hand, or worse.

In addition, the story was written down seven years after the tree was cut. The tree was used for shipbuilding, and there is no indication that the curious bit was retained; at least, the author didn't seem to have seen it. We have no idea of the character of one James P. Bartle, or whether *he* knew a stone ax cut from a handsaw. We don't know how the story was related over time, and whether it was, for instance, the kind of story that gets one's drinks paid for by others at the tavern.

This is the kind of story that was very common among white folks as the frontier moved west. Many such stories wound up in newspapers and other publications of the time; and found their way to these days of modern times to be discussed, with more or less credulity, in, for instance, Usenet newsgroups.

There is almost always less to these stories than meets the eye, in my experience. Which is not inconsiderable. The question I have is what evidence is there that this story is better-founded than most such?

that the marks left by
a stone axe are quite different from those left by an iron/steel axe.
This largely stems from the narrower edge angle which can be supported
by iron/steel.

Re your 200 years: the reported incident occurred in 1834; "the
original cutting was found to be encased by 460 years' growth of the
wood", which means that it had to have occurred in 1374. That means
the axe must have dated from from 1174.

While there is no evidence that it was 200 years old, it is quite
possible that the axe was  that years old when it came into the
possession of a native american. As the runic inscription in Maes Howe
re Gauk Trandilsson's axe testifies, Viking axes could remain in
service for many generations. See
http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/scotland.htm

There is exceedingly little evidence that "it" existed. While speculating about "it" might be fun, ISTM that there are more interesting archaeological fish to fry.
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Medieval Axemen in New York
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