Re: PASSOVER not understood by Christians
- From: prd <X_header@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 01:20:29 GMT
In sci.archaeology message xDCuf.2890$If.871@trnddc05">news:xDCuf.2890$If.871@trnddc05 by
"Larry Wilson" <misha_linword@xxxxxxxxxxx> . . . :
> For some reason, the great need to have Christ fulfill being the
> Paschal Lamb
What need, I never saw any great need, you are refering about the
needs of the catholic church or some churches?
> on the same date or time as the Passover
> celebration has blinded Christians in general (including
> Jehovah's witnesses who otherwise tend to accept the Biblical
> historical references over all others) to the true facts of what
> happened at the time of Jesus' death.
We all know that the Jehovah's witnesses are the pentultimate in
christianity!
> Some of this is due,
> though, to also not understanding nuances of koine Greek.
>
> Case in point is John 19:14 which mentions Jesus' trial at noon
> "on the day of preparation for passver." This is incorrectly
> translated as the Greek adverb "de" (translated as "but")
> appears before the division of the day preparation. "De" does
> not appear before references to the day of preparation when
> Jesus is being put into the tomb. Thus "de" which is a
> negative, is a reference for noon just before preparation would
> begin that evening.
> This is apparent as well, since Jesus was impaled at the third
> hour according to Mark, which means he was impaled some nine
> hours after his trial began at noon. The third hour would be
> 9:00 p.m. that night. As well, the gospels also repor that
> after Jesus was already impaled it suddenly got dark and an
> earthquake occurred at noon three hours before his death. Now,
> obviously, you can't have Jesus already on the cross at noon and
> just going on trial at noon and yet his impalement is at the
> third.
The book of John was written some believe 100 years after the fact.
If the belief that jesus was born in 5 to 7 BC and he died in his
34th year then that would mean jesus was crucified between 28 and
30AD. The earliest date for John was 70AD and most place it at 85AD
or later. It was a book that came into favor because of stylistic
reasons over some books of the bible that were excluded. Luke is a
generally more reliable account and the author identifies himself and
his work is identified as from 59-63 AD, some 20 years earlier.
While many modern christians favor the writing of John and deny they
have an non-interpretive veiw of the bible, John is, in fact, the
most interpretive book of Jesus's life and it was already heading in
the direction of religious orthodoxy [Why is was favored by the later
religious councils.
Luke on the other hand had outstanding command of the greek
language he mentions that the crucifiction took place on the 6th hour
and by the 9th hour Jesus was dead.
> Since it is obvious that Jesus has to go on trial before
> he is impaled, the noontime reference for his trial occurs the
> day before the noontime reference of darkness 3 hours before
> Christ's death. It's just that simple. Because of the
> inadequate understanding of Greek language context in relation
> to time of day references, John 19:14 alludes to the trial being
> on the same day that Jesus died, the day of preparation.
Luke however makes it clear that John's chronology was not precise.
> But this is the basis for more isunderstanding as since the day
> of "preparation for passover" was not Nisan 14 but Nisan 20th.
> How do we know that?
Not that it matters. but how do you gather that?
> We know that because Passover is eaten on the first day of
> unfermented cakes. Luke 22:7 clearly says that Jesus sent out
> two disciples on the day the lambs were sacrificed. The lambs
> were killed precisely at the ninth hour which is the time of
> "between the two evenings." According to Josephus, this took
> place at the temple between the "ninth and eleventh hours"
> ("Wars", Josephus). Therefore, at sundown when Jesus joined
> the two disciples for passover, this was the traditional
> passover meal and the "sabbath day of the first day of
> unfermented cakes." This was the very night that the Jews left
> Egypt many years ago. The date for the Exodus is Nisan 15th.
Jesus was taken into custody according to luke, handed over to pilate
for questioning, handed over to herod who was engaged in passover,
then back to pilate, This was not something that took place in the
middle of night but over several hours or days. If jesus was
crucified in the morning, captured at a night time, then you have at
least 1 day he spent being kicked about by the roman autocracy.
'Then seizing him they lead him away and took him into the house of
the high priest,
'At daybreak the conucul of the elders' . . .and they questioned
Jesus. It does not give a time but later Pilate met with him. The
assumption this is at least 8AM or 9AM.
At still another time Pilate sent him to Herod. 'He plied him with
many questions'
> A little more confusion exists because the Jewish sabbath day
> begins at sunset but the actual calendar date officially changes
> at midnight. Thus even though passover is eaten on Nisan 14th
> and the Jews left Egypt before morning on Nisan 15th, it's the
> same night and the same sabbath day.
>
> That being the case, after midnight, it became Nisan 15th and
> thus there is no way Jesus could have died on preparation, Nisan
> 14th. The gospels specifically tell us Jesus died one day
> before the sabbath and rose on the first day of the week yet was
> in the grave for "three nights." For this to happen you need
> two sabbath days in a row.
>
> In 33 CE, this is precisely what occurred the following weekend.
> Again, since Passover is eaten on the first day of unfermented
> cakes which is a sabbath day, it is impossible for Jesus to have
> been impaled the same day he ate passover and we know he ate the
> traditional passover on Nisan 14th after sundown.
The crucifiction was believe to have occurred between 28 and 30AD,
you are in the wrong year.
> SUMMARY: Jesus ate the traditional passover which occurs on the
> sabbath day of the first day of unfermented cakes. Thus Jesus
> was arrested on Nisan 15th. Since the gospels are clear Jesus
> died on a day of "preparation for passover" the only other day
> of "preparation for passover" was Nisan 20th, the preparation
> day for the passover sabbath of the 7th day of unfermented
> cakes.
SUMMARY: you appear to have the wrong dates, use bad sources (JOhn)
in the wrong year. Not that it matters, because christians worship
the 'ressurection' on Eastern Sunday, a greek pagan holiday. Three
days can be 3 days or 2.5 days not that it really matters since it
appears to be largely an embellishment of facts 3 or 4 decades later.
> Further, that there is certainly more than one day
> involved in connection with Jesus' death is the fact that Jesus'
> trial is noted to be at noon, his impalement at 9:00 and
> darkness occurs after that also at noon. That means the trial at
> noon must have occurred one day before the darkness occurred.
> That's obvious. But it also means the Bible confirms that
> Jesus did not die the same day he ate passover or even the same
> day of his trial.
That should indicate that 3 days of his death equals the number of
times the sun appears, it is the counting of suns not 24 hour
periods. Not that I believe the chronology or the accounts, my patron
saint is Tomas, the doubter. His account, as you will note, was done
away with by the Orthodox church of the constantine period. They
claim that Passover of the year 30AD would have been on thursday.
> Now this is fairly straightforward and final at this point. But
> believe me, there will be some who for some reason will simply
> contradict this and try and make Jesus die on Nisan 14th at all
> costs, ignoring the actual coordinated gospel accounts and
So anyone who denies your point of view is wrong. This type of
orthodoxy is what sent Christianity in a tailspin to begin with,
generations later we have those who would put forth more. According
to the bible Jesus was born under the reign of herod the great, we
know when herod died, so that pretty much locks up his birth, in
addition we know how old he was, unless you are saying jesus was 38
to 40 years of age. Maybe he was just having a midlife crisis?
> "clues" as to Jesus dying the following day of "preparation for
> passover" on Nisan 20th. Note that "passover" was a reference
> to all events occuring during that entire week and "Festival of
> Unfermented Cakes" and "Passover" were interchangeable terms in
> Jesus' day.
Yes and you may note that wednesday was a silent day during the
christian chronology, passover may have occurred in the we hours of
thursday morning along with his arrest, . . . .
Though I fail to see any importance to all of this. Anyone who pays
particular attention to the Passover connection the meaning of the
crucifiction and the resurrection seems to be more interested in
religion than spirituality. The first off there is a universal
meaning to sacrifice, giving of life for the group, the significance
of the ego versus the spirit, this battle is important, since Jesus
had ample opportunity to redeam himself in front of Pilate and Herod,
he could have asked to be tried in Rome or in another city. That he
allowed his fate to be handed over to the Jews during thier passover
is symbolic. The thrashing at the temple to raise attention,
signaling judas, going up to a public place, and essentially thumbing
his nose at Pilate and Herod even those two could have saved his skin
which is repeated in all books indicates that he was allowing his
life and fate to be in the hands of Jews. The biblical account has a
spiritual meaning, that the Jews at the time were much more concerned
with perception and tradition than with spirituality, and so even on
their holiest of days they would be willing to spill blood rather
than face some judgement of their ways. In earlier speeches Jesus
said observe the signs of the times, as Josephus would almost repeat
the same thing at the seige of Jeruselem, it becomes apparent that
the religious zealotry that had taken place would be a part in the
doom of Jeruselem and the Jews. Not neccesarily prophetic if you saw
the events of that Passover in Jesus's eyes Pilate often takes the
fall for essentially mob rule, not the rule of the law, and certainly
not the rule during the period of judges, christ makes the point that
while the Jews knew the law they lost to the spirit of the law and
thus the signs of their time was unapparent to them. The precision of
the timing is pretty much immaterial. Is it material when Churchill
decided the Hitler was someone who had to be dealt with, the hour and
the day ring so exact on historical events?
> Finally, John 19:14 which references Jesus' trial at noon
> "de-preparation for passover" means this was not on the day of
> preparation but the afternoon before preparation was to begin.
> The day before-preparation would be Wednesday, Nisan 19th. This
> is confirmed, as above, because Jesus was on trial at noon one
> day and darkness occurred at noon after his impalement.
> Obviously the trial was the day before. There is no textual
> syntax problem for translating John 19:14 as noon "*just before*
> preparation for passover" and thus confirming and harmonizing
> the trial was on the 19th and Jesus death on the 20th. This
> also means there is perfect harmony between John and the
> synoptic gospels on this issue. Previously it had been
> generally thought that John and the synoptic gospels were
> contradictory. But they are not. It's just a matter of paying
> a little closer attention to the details here.
Its rather immaterial unless you are orthodox. The fact of the matter
is that biblical dates are generally off by years, anyway, a day or
two hardly matters. If you are dead for a day or 3 days, your still
dead so that doesn't matter. In fact if you are dead for more the 4
minutes, that is generally considered dead as a doornail, although
medical revivals can revive the body, the spirit in much more
difficult to bring forth. So from that point of view, the metaphor of
Jonah is more or less symbolic here. Secondarily its 2006, less 30
years the crucification took plae 1976 years ago so that a few hours
or a day off in chronology hardly matters. And Jesus was not a strict
traditionalist anyway, so whether he celebrated passover on a
wednesday or thursday might not have been important, given the crowds
in the city celebrations may have been staggered on different days.
In some religious spheres they find it all important to match some
prophesy with some biblical event, as some sort of warning. Well the
basic problem is you'll know the savior after he has been dead three
days, OK so how does that help in gaining a first hand understanding
to this savior. I like the gosplic according to Tomas because it has
the wording and meaning of christ in a less institutionalized
interpretation, in this context you get a real feel for the quality
of the disciples, you aren't dealing with a bunch of Rhode Scholars
or Herodetonian Historians or chronologist. By and large that whole
week would have melded together as if one day in thier minds as they
were on the run from these various factions. These writings and
customs make for great church ceremonies and great holidays, at that
I don't see that they are wrong, unless of course you take a
Christian stance on both, since traditions do not have to be based on
fact, Christian Passover Sunday is based on an anatolian pagan
holiday. Dispatching the notion that Christians really care about the
precise chronology. The details are really not that important, if
they get the spirituality of the event wrong to begin with.
I should point out the greater spiritual debate is whether christ
had intended his belief to be 'a religion' whether he was trying to
get Jews to follow or to hand over judean spirituality to gentiles.
Some scholars believe that gentilic christianity was something that
happened after his followers realized they were not appreciated in
Jeruselum or the diaspora. According to jesus the followers were to
be no more than brothers, without leadership all should be 'sons of
god' so that pretty much takes away the authority of the papacy.
Reading the gospil according to Tomas one can see that through the
behavior of his disciples jesus exemplifies the innately orthodox
stance he expects in all of judaism, and thus one could interpret
this as meaning that once these judaean avenues of expansion were
exhausted they were to turn to gentiles. In this respect the handing
over of himself during passover does have some symbolatry for his
intention, IOW saying to his disciples, not only will you deny me,
but as I am handed over to your people, watch my fate, and this will
be your fate also, so plow the fertile feild because this feild is
exhausted. The other principle is that the worst thing that can
happen to religious figures is that the become icons, exploitable by
rulers and whatever, saying what he felt important Jesus may have
felt that if his disciples were not yet ready, they would never be
ready.
This are the meanings of the crucifiction, the others are in the
bible, which I do not care to expound apon.
.
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