Re: Celtic Origins



"Inger E.Johansson" wrote:
>
> "JMB" <johnmbyrne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> skrev i meddelandet
> news:43d6262a$0$24957$ba620d2c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > "Inger E.Johansson" <inger e.johansson@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > news:XupBf.154553$dP1.512983@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > > "Doug Weller" <dweller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> skrev i meddelandet
> > > news:0e8ct1tmel4qpumolrutpkq26e96ordaq8@xxxxxxxxxx
> > >> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:24:22 +0100, in sci.archaeology, Peter Alaca
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >Brian McEvoy, B, M. Richards, P. Forster
> > >> >& DG. Bradley (2004)
> > >> >"The Longue Durée of Genetic Ancestry: Multiple
> > >> >Genetic Marker Systems and Celtic Origins on
> > >> >the Atlantic Facade of Europe"
> > >> >Am J Hum Genet. October 2004; 75(4): 693-702.
> > >> >
> > >> > " Celtic languages are now spoken only on the
> > >> > Atlantic facade of Europe, mainly in Britain and
> > >> > Ireland, but were spoken more widely in western
> > >> > and central Europe until the collapse of the
> > >> > Roman Empire in the first millennium a.d.
> > >> > It has been common to couple archaeological
> > >> > evidence for the expansion of Iron Age elites in
> > >> > central Europe with the dispersal of these
> > >> > languages and of Celtic ethnicity and to posit a
> > >> > central European "homeland" for the Celtic
> > >> > peoples. More recently, however, archaeologists
> > >> > have questioned this "migrationist" view of Celtic
> > >> > ethnogenesis. "
> > >> > [...].
> > >> > " What seems clear is that neither the mtDNA
> > >> > pattern nor that of the Y-chromosome markers
> > >> > supports a substantially central European Iron
> > >> > Age origin for most Celtic speakers-or former
> > >> > Celtic speakers-of the Atlantic facade. The
> > >> > affinities of the areas where Celtic languages are
> > >> > spoken, or were formerly spoken, are generally
> > >> > with other regions in the Atlantic zone, from
> > >> > northern Spain to northern Britain. Although
> > >> > some level of Iron Age immigration into Britain
> > >> > and Ireland could probably never be ruled out by
> > >> > the use of modern genetic data, these results
> > >> > point toward a distinctive Atlantic genetic
> > >> > heritage with roots in the processes at the end
> > >> > of the last Ice Age. "
> > >> >
> > >> >For the full, long, abstract with maps and full refs,
> > >> >see on PubMed http://tinyurl.com/8sxpe
> > >>
> > >> I know Barry Cunliffe suggests the possibility that Celtic originated
> in
> > >> what is described above as the Atlantic zone.
> > >>
> > >> Doug
> > >
> > > Doug,
> > > has anyone 'lately' disputed that. If so on what grounds?
> >
> > The main grounds for disputing that idea is the linking of the Celtic
> > languages with artefacts. The style of the art on the artefact known to
> > have been made by people speaking Celtic language originated in central
> > Europe, so it was assumed that the language also originated there. Other
> > than that, I can't think of any other main reasons (although there is the
> > possibility that an ancient historian also made the claim, someone else
> > would have to verify that as my memory ain't what it used to be.
>
> That I don't know. BUT I do know that some historian during 1800's refered
> to ancient historians or early Medieval Historians who seems to have put
> forward that the Celts spread from the Brittish isles and Ireland eastward
> and there picked up the metalwork technology.

As I recall, the Celtic people moved from East to West. They were
located north of the Illyrians at around 600 -> 400 BCE, and this is
established from ancient Greek records. Livius also writes about Roman
Senate gifts to the Celtic King Cincibilus, 170 BCE. Among the gifts
were horses including equipment and their grooms and trainers (Livius,
43; 5, 1?10). It is only later that they moved to central Europe and
were party to the fall of the Roman Empire.

There does exist a Y-chromosome study that that attempts to follow the
Y-chromosome movement in relation to language - sadly I can't find it
at present.

Carthage was the home of iron production in industrial quantities.
They were highly skilled and advanced in the manufacturing and used a
method involving lime, that was not rediscovered until the 19'th
century.



--
SIR - Philosopher unauthorised
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The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
misled.
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Relevant Pages

  • Re: Celtic Origins
    ... >>> have been made by people speaking Celtic language ... >>> Europe, so it was assumed that the language also ... >>> possibility that an ancient historian also made the claim, ... > were party to the fall of the Roman Empire. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Celtic Origins
    ... so it was assumed that the language also originated there. ... >>> possibility that an ancient historian also made the claim, ... the 1783 academic work I sent you ref to some years ago had in one of the ... he refered to not everything according to the translator had been translated ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Celtic Origins
    ... >>> Doug ... so it was assumed that the language also originated there. ... > possibility that an ancient historian also made the claim, ... >> And how wide is 'the Atlantic zone' thought to be? ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Celtic Origins
    ... >> The main grounds for disputing that idea is the linking of the Celtic ... so it was assumed that the language also originated there. ... >> possibility that an ancient historian also made the claim, ... > and there picked up the metalwork technology. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
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