Re: Celtic Origins

"Seppo Renfors" <Renfors@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:43D72E62.7BB1CC4D@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>
> "Inger E.Johansson" wrote:
> >
> > "JMB" <johnmbyrne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> skrev i meddelandet
> > news:43d6262a$0$24957$ba620d2c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > "Inger E.Johansson" <inger e.johansson@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in
message
> > > news:XupBf.154553$dP1.512983@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >
> > > > "Doug Weller" <dweller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> skrev i
meddelandet
> > > > news:0e8ct1tmel4qpumolrutpkq26e96ordaq8@xxxxxxxxxx
> > > >> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:24:22 +0100, in sci.archaeology,
Peter Alaca
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> >Brian McEvoy, B, M. Richards, P. Forster
> > > >> >& DG. Bradley (2004)
> > > >> >"The Longue Durée of Genetic Ancestry: Multiple
> > > >> >Genetic Marker Systems and Celtic Origins on
> > > >> >the Atlantic Facade of Europe"
> > > >> >Am J Hum Genet. October 2004; 75(4): 693-702.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > " Celtic languages are now spoken only on the
> > > >> > Atlantic facade of Europe, mainly in Britain and
> > > >> > Ireland, but were spoken more widely in western
> > > >> > and central Europe until the collapse of the
> > > >> > Roman Empire in the first millennium a.d.
> > > >> > It has been common to couple archaeological
> > > >> > evidence for the expansion of Iron Age elites in
> > > >> > central Europe with the dispersal of these
> > > >> > languages and of Celtic ethnicity and to posit a
> > > >> > central European "homeland" for the Celtic
> > > >> > peoples. More recently, however, archaeologists
> > > >> > have questioned this "migrationist" view of Celtic
> > > >> > ethnogenesis. "
> > > >> > [...].
> > > >> > " What seems clear is that neither the mtDNA
> > > >> > pattern nor that of the Y-chromosome markers
> > > >> > supports a substantially central European Iron
> > > >> > Age origin for most Celtic speakers-or former
> > > >> > Celtic speakers-of the Atlantic facade. The
> > > >> > affinities of the areas where Celtic languages are
> > > >> > spoken, or were formerly spoken, are generally
> > > >> > with other regions in the Atlantic zone, from
> > > >> > northern Spain to northern Britain. Although
> > > >> > some level of Iron Age immigration into Britain
> > > >> > and Ireland could probably never be ruled out by
> > > >> > the use of modern genetic data, these results
> > > >> > point toward a distinctive Atlantic genetic
> > > >> > heritage with roots in the processes at the end
> > > >> > of the last Ice Age. "
> > > >> >
> > > >> >For the full, long, abstract with maps and full refs,
> > > >> >see on PubMed http://tinyurl.com/8sxpe
> > > >>
> > > >> I know Barry Cunliffe suggests the possibility that
Celtic originated
> > in
> > > >> what is described above as the Atlantic zone.
> > > >>
> > > >> Doug
> > > >
> > > > Doug,
> > > > has anyone 'lately' disputed that. If so on what
grounds?
> > >
> > > The main grounds for disputing that idea is the linking of
the Celtic
> > > languages with artefacts. The style of the art on the
artefact known to
> > > have been made by people speaking Celtic language
originated in central
> > > Europe, so it was assumed that the language also
originated there. Other
> > > than that, I can't think of any other main reasons
(although there is the
> > > possibility that an ancient historian also made the claim,
someone else
> > > would have to verify that as my memory ain't what it used
to be.
> >
> > That I don't know. BUT I do know that some historian during
1800's refered
> > to ancient historians or early Medieval Historians who seems
to have put
> > forward that the Celts spread from the Brittish isles and
Ireland eastward
> > and there picked up the metalwork technology.
>
> As I recall, the Celtic people moved from East to West. They
were
> located north of the Illyrians at around 600 -> 400 BCE, and
this is
> established from ancient Greek records. Livius also writes
about Roman
> Senate gifts to the Celtic King Cincibilus, 170 BCE. Among the
gifts
> were horses including equipment and their grooms and trainers
(Livius,
> 43; 5, 1-10). It is only later that they moved to central
Europe and
> were party to the fall of the Roman Empire.

Two questions:
You seem to say that they were located north of the Illyrians
but later moved to central Europe. That's not much of a move, is
it?

How were Celtic peoples involved in the fall of the Roman
Empire?

>
> There does exist a Y-chromosome study that that attempts to
follow the
> Y-chromosome movement in relation to language - sadly I can't
find it
> at present.
>
> Carthage was the home of iron production in industrial
quantities.
> They were highly skilled and advanced in the manufacturing and
used a
> method involving lime, that was not rediscovered until the
19'th
> century.

Alan

--
Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden


.

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