Re: Celtic Origins

In sci.archaeology message
news:43d8a6cf$0$24962$ba620d2c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx by "JMB"
<johnmbyrne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> . . . :

> "Hayabusa" <peregrine@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:1b3gt1p9vsru1gf8bmilboqooso2m0al4c@xxxxxxxxxx
>> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:35:25 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
>> <name1.name2@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Would trade and commerce be enough to make a native population
>>>adopt a new language? I would imagine that it would require
>>>some speakers of the new language actually settling in the
>>>country.
>>
>> Just settling?!? That usually means in more concrete terms to
>> kill the males and rape the females.
>
> And that's something that many genetic studies tell us didn't
> happen in Ireland, or Wales for that matter.

Cannot say it didn't happen. If I remember my last calculation about
15 to 30% of Irish genes may have come during the holocene from
origins outside of the Isles. While Ireland does share some affinity
with the alpine region. The nodal haplotype of the alps is bimodal in
Ireland, generally if there was an invasion into an existing node,
the outsiders frequencies are diluted unless they are entirely of a
very inbred and homogeneous lot. This does not appear to be possible
given the genetic makeup of germany and france. Although A3 B7 could
have remained high in Ireland because it was high and it was a major
type of the invaders, relatively everything else fell, and because
later the invaders were invaded, the _facts_ with regard to the Irish
is the moment of gene flow is not pointing in the direction of the
alps but in the direction of northern iberia. It might point in the
NW/W coast of france but inadequate typing has been done.

This is why I made my original point, if celtic evolved entirely in
western europe, there should be some affinity with the basque
languages because from this direction gene flow appears to have come
both in ancient times and in recent times. Of course the Pas have
very high levels of A29 B44 and this is an alternative, Irish Gaelic
may have evolved from celtiberian, but it looks as if this genetic
contribution is as old as the indoeuropean tongues themselves.
If not a genetic wave then the better argument is the one made by
others, that this was a cultural wave. We tend to think as pre-roman
europe as uncivil, but the gaelic peoples appear to have had an
advanced tribal or clanic culture with fairly well developed
political system, shamans with some education in political structure
may have come to Ireland and scholar the cheiftans in both language
(which they can explain what was going on in the east). The reasoning
for this cultural 'assistence' may have been trading alliances
between mainland gauls and Islandic peoples. Here again a common
language is needed. The tin trade in England may have been an
empetus, perhaps the threat of the Portuguese Phonecians showing up
unannounced was an impetus. The other phenomena is that association
between the artifacts of stonehenge and the mainland, it could be
that stonehenge was a religious site partaken by pilgrimage from the
mainland, only the elite would be able to make the journey. There
could have been other religious sites we are unaware of in Ireland.

There is not _no_ evidence of Gene flow to Ireland during the
Holocene from the alpine cultures, the basic problem is that the low
smattering of low frequency haplotypes not either of north Iberian or
intrinsic origin there is no specific direction of origin for these,
often they are found at similar frequencies in france, germany and
italy. Some even run all the way back to the middle east, with no
clear node in europe. Perhaps if the population structure of france,
germany, austria and switzerland are broken down into subregions such
a node would become apparent. I need to emphasize the point, while
molecular genetics has learned an immense amount about population
structure in the last 15 years and millions of people have been
typed, we still have a long way to go given the implicit structural
complexities of many areas of the world. We can define the Islandic
node and I am very comfortable with what I see in the western
Islandic region, but the way I look at france, when you start seeing
village and small town typing, and via this type towns and villages
are joined into homologous clusters and these clusters are
intercompared and descrepancies in the gene frequencies are examined,
recent external contributions are subtracted out leaving the residue
of the founders, then it is possible to clearly resolve the genetic
association with other peoples. In the majority of western europe
this is not the state of things. The antinodal character of france
and germany may mask much underlying microdiversity at the
subregional level, mininodes, averaged out by big city hospital
studies.



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