Re: Celtic Origins
- From: "JMB" <johnmbyrne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:09:52 -0000
"prd" <X_header@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:e75Cf.298108$qk4.275299@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> In sci.archaeology message
> news:43d8a6cf$0$24962$ba620d2c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx by "JMB"
> <johnmbyrne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> . . . :
>
>> "Hayabusa" <peregrine@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:1b3gt1p9vsru1gf8bmilboqooso2m0al4c@xxxxxxxxxx
>>> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:35:25 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
>>> <name1.name2@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Would trade and commerce be enough to make a native population
>>>>adopt a new language? I would imagine that it would require
>>>>some speakers of the new language actually settling in the
>>>>country.
>>>
>>> Just settling?!? That usually means in more concrete terms to
>>> kill the males and rape the females.
>>
>> And that's something that many genetic studies tell us didn't
>> happen in Ireland, or Wales for that matter.
>
> Cannot say it didn't happen. If I remember my last calculation about
> 15 to 30% of Irish genes may have come during the holocene from
> origins outside of the Isles.
I'm not going by your calculation, I'm going by all the published reports.
In certain hubs, there is a fair amount of Viking, and Anglo-Norman, DNA,
but nothing to link us to the peoples of central Europe.
> While Ireland does share some affinity
> with the alpine region. The nodal haplotype of the alps is bimodal in
> Ireland, generally if there was an invasion into an existing node,
> the outsiders frequencies are diluted unless they are entirely of a
> very inbred and homogeneous lot. This does not appear to be possible
> given the genetic makeup of germany and france. Although A3 B7 could
> have remained high in Ireland because it was high and it was a major
> type of the invaders, relatively everything else fell, and because
> later the invaders were invaded, the _facts_ with regard to the Irish
> is the moment of gene flow is not pointing in the direction of the
> alps but in the direction of northern iberia. It might point in the
> NW/W coast of france but inadequate typing has been done.
>
> This is why I made my original point, if celtic evolved entirely in
> western europe, there should be some affinity with the basque
> languages because from this direction gene flow appears to have come
> both in ancient times and in recent times. Of course the Pas have
> very high levels of A29 B44 and this is an alternative, Irish Gaelic
> may have evolved from celtiberian, but it looks as if this genetic
> contribution is as old as the indoeuropean tongues themselves.
> If not a genetic wave then the better argument is the one made by
> others, that this was a cultural wave. We tend to think as pre-roman
> europe as uncivil, but the gaelic peoples appear to have had an
> advanced tribal or clanic culture with fairly well developed
> political system, shamans with some education in political structure
> may have come to Ireland and scholar the cheiftans in both language
> (which they can explain what was going on in the east). The reasoning
> for this cultural 'assistence' may have been trading alliances
> between mainland gauls and Islandic peoples. Here again a common
> language is needed. The tin trade in England may have been an
> empetus, perhaps the threat of the Portuguese Phonecians showing up
> unannounced was an impetus. The other phenomena is that association
> between the artifacts of stonehenge and the mainland, it could be
> that stonehenge was a religious site partaken by pilgrimage from the
> mainland, only the elite would be able to make the journey. There
> could have been other religious sites we are unaware of in Ireland.
>
> There is not _no_ evidence of Gene flow to Ireland during the
> Holocene from the alpine cultures, the basic problem is that the low
> smattering of low frequency haplotypes not either of north Iberian or
> intrinsic origin there is no specific direction of origin for these,
> often they are found at similar frequencies in france, germany and
> italy. Some even run all the way back to the middle east, with no
> clear node in europe. Perhaps if the population structure of france,
> germany, austria and switzerland are broken down into subregions such
> a node would become apparent. I need to emphasize the point, while
> molecular genetics has learned an immense amount about population
> structure in the last 15 years and millions of people have been
> typed, we still have a long way to go given the implicit structural
> complexities of many areas of the world. We can define the Islandic
> node and I am very comfortable with what I see in the western
> Islandic region, but the way I look at france, when you start seeing
> village and small town typing, and via this type towns and villages
> are joined into homologous clusters and these clusters are
> intercompared and descrepancies in the gene frequencies are examined,
> recent external contributions are subtracted out leaving the residue
> of the founders, then it is possible to clearly resolve the genetic
> association with other peoples. In the majority of western europe
> this is not the state of things. The antinodal character of france
> and germany may mask much underlying microdiversity at the
> subregional level, mininodes, averaged out by big city hospital
> studies.
>
>
>
.
- References:
- Celtic Origins
- From: Peter Alaca
- Re: Celtic Origins
- From: Doug Weller
- Re: Celtic Origins
- From: JMB
- Re: Celtic Origins
- From: Alan Crozier
- Re: Celtic Origins
- From: Hayabusa
- Re: Celtic Origins
- From: JMB
- Re: Celtic Origins
- From: prd
- Celtic Origins
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