Re: Celtic Origins


"JMB" <johnmbyrne(remove)@mysmart.ie> skrev i meddelandet
news:43ssj8F1pgsgvU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> "Doug Weller" <dweller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:jr8it1h0fr2r8mlsb79ddfrtg5gmg6oq0n@xxxxxxxxxx
> > On 26 Jan 2006 10:26:00 -0800, in sci.archaeology, bernard wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>Uwe Müller wrote:
> >>> "JMB" <johnmbyrne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> >>> news:43d8db1e$0$24960$ba620d2c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> > "Uwe Müller" <uwemueller@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> >>> > news:draft2$9du$1@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> > >
> >>> > > "JMB" <johnmbyrne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> >>> > > news:43d8a5af$0$24962$ba620d2c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> > >> "Hayabusa" <peregrine@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> >>> > >> news:ah3gt15ij1668jcu092sgulb94sp39qa1k@xxxxxxxxxx
> >>> > >> > On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:23:03 -0000, "JMB"
> >>> > >> > <johnmbyrne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> > >> > wrote:
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >
> >>>
> >>> > snip >
> >>> >
> >>> > It's not just a continuation of burial practices. Small migrations,
> >>> > as I
> >>> > have alreay said, would certainly have happened, but no invasions,
> >>> > either
> >>> > mass or of elite rulers. The people making the products were
locals,
> >>> > they
> >>> > pretty much kept everything as it was. An invasion of an elite
ruling
> >>> class
> >>> > would have changed more than just the language surely. They would
> >>> > have
> >>> > brought their own artesans, burial practices (at least for
> >>> > themselves),
> >>> > dwelling types, modes of transport, etc. In this case, it's not a
> >>> > case of
> >>> > there being an absense of evidence of an invasion, it is a case of
> >>> > there
> >>> > being quite a bit of evidence that there was no invasion. That is a
> >>> > different situation altogether.
> >>>
> >>> But that is a pretty good description of what 'Celtic' means,
> >>> archaeological. A group of regional based cultures, that exchanged
> >>> people,
> >>> goods and ideas over long distances. As they had been doing for a long
> >>> time.
> >>> How would we detect an army of 50 celtish youths, that went over to
help
> >>> a
> >>> cousin three times removed with some difficulties? How many of these
> >>> armies
> >>> would it need to make a difference, to connect Britain to the celtic
> >>> sphere?
> >>>
> >>> Many of those youths would return to the Celticae, but some would stay
> >>> and
> >>> intermarry (as the 3rd cousin had). The change would be slow, but the
> >>> knowledge of celtic lifestyle (economical, technical, language,
> >>> religion,
> >>> ...) would be profitable.
> >>>
> >>> The outward spread of celtic metalworking technics can be followed
> >>> fairly
> >>> easily, they are used to create local products, even though sometimes
> >>> inspired by celtic artefacts. Celtic scrollwork, celtic art and
> >>> mythology
> >>> show a different picture of expansion.
> >>>
> >>> I would say that the north, northern Germany and the Baltic, was an
area
> >>> with little influx of people, the east, along the Danube, saw a
massive
> >>> movement of people. The west and the south seem to have been somewhere
> >>> inbetween. Not enough people moved to show clearly in the
archaeological
> >>> record. But enough to make a marked difference.
> >>>
> >>> have fun
> >>>
> >>> Uwe Mueller
> >>
> >>I always understood that the Celts were a linguistic group of people,
> >>rather than a "nation" in the modern sense.
> >
> > True. And they spoke different languages and couldn't all understand
each
> > other.
> >>
> >>There is a tradition in Gaelic Ireland that our ancestors came via
> >>Spain and were known as Milesians. This sounds Latin, so I looked it up
> >>in a Latin dictionary and found the word "Milesius", who was an
> >>inhabitant of Miletus, they were known for their fondness of luxury and
> >>wantoness (Um?)
>
> That's not a genuine Irish tradition, it's a much later christian
tradition
> that ultimately tries to tie our history into the bible.
>
> >>
> >>There is also a tradition that there were at least two previous groups
> >>of people in Ireland before the Milesians arrived. The Fir Bolg ( Fat
> >>Men) and the Tuatha de Danaan ( The people of Danaan). I believe that
> >>Danaan was a god.
>
> That's what is known as mythology. Fir Bolg has never been interpreted as
> "Fat Men" before as far as I'm aware. It is usually interpreted as "Men
of
> bags", or "Men of Spears", or sometimes "Men of Bolg", where "Bolg" is
> thought to have been a name of a god. The whole of the Tuatha De Danann
> were pretty much gods. Danu was the name of the main goddess. The
> invasions were designed to make us biblical.

Here you have one problem. The Tuatha De Danann, might very well have been a
real historic group. The time when they are mentioned in the Irish tales
correspond well with the present knowledge of direct contacts between
Tanum's parish in todays Bohuslän Sweden and Ireland/Scotland during Bronze
Age according to what L.Bengtsson Rock Carving Museum Vitlycke, Tanum, told
Prof Lee Pennington during an interview the other year. I was present during
the interview and managed to get a short discussion with LB after the
interview. What he said correspond very well with the Irish tales.

Inger E
>
> >>
> > These are medieval myths of course. The Irish didn't come from Turkey.
> >
> > Doug
>
>


.

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