Re: Celtic Origins


Seppo Renfors wrote:
> Alan Crozier wrote:
> >
> > "Seppo Renfors" <Renfors@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > news:43D80FA8.4AA3C3D7@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >
> > > Alan Crozier wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Seppo Renfors" <Renfors@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > > > news:43D72E62.7BB1CC4D@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > [..]
> > > > >
> > > > > As I recall, the Celtic people moved from East to West.
> > They
> > > > were
> > > > > located north of the Illyrians at around 600 -> 400 BCE,
> > and
> > > > this is
> > > > > established from ancient Greek records. Livius also writes
> > > > about Roman
> > > > > Senate gifts to the Celtic King Cincibilus, 170 BCE. Among
> > the
> > > > gifts
> > > > > were horses including equipment and their grooms and
> > trainers
> > > > (Livius,
> > > > > 43; 5, 1-10). It is only later that they moved to central
> > > > Europe and
> > > > > were party to the fall of the Roman Empire.
> > > >
> > > > Two questions:
> > > > You seem to say that they were located north of the
> > Illyrians
> > > > but later moved to central Europe. That's not much of a
> > move, is
> > > > it?
> > >
> > > No, but that is where mention of them first occurs. One can't
> > even say
> > > it was a "shift" to anywhere - perhaps they already existed in
> > other
> > > areas but were unknown as "Celts". There is some mention of
> > them
> > > having come from the Black Sea area, probably the west coast
> > of it.
> > > However that is mainly mythology/legend and not solid
> > evidence.
> > >
> > > > How were Celtic peoples involved in the fall of the Roman
> > > > Empire?
> > >
> > > They sacked Rome itself! It would appear that they had split
> > into two
> > > groups around that time, one on the northern foothills, into
> > the
> > > Austrian Alps (the Hallstatt culture) - another on the
> > Southern side
> > > of the Alps south of Switzerland extending to the Po river.
> > Though the
> > > combined area is shown on some population maps to have
> > belonged to the
> > > one people.
> >
> > So the sack of the very small Roman Republic by Gauls in 387 BC
> > was the start of the fall of the huge Roman Empire 800 years
> > later? Sorry, I don't see the causal connection at all. Despite
> > the sack of Rome in 387 BC, the power of Rome grew immensely.
> > From a small area comprising Latium it spread to cover the
> > entire Mediterranean world and the Near East. And you say the
> > Celts "were party to the fall of the Roman Empire"?
>
> That's what happens when you rely on memory solely - I ascribed the
> sacking of Rome to the wrong side of the Epoch. Still the Celts were
> part of the cause (not the sole cause) of the fall of Rome with their
> constant insurrections in Gaul. Many of the Celtic people sided with
> Hannibal, and in fact the Cisalpine Gaul couldn't be fully "pacified"
> till after the defeat of Hannibal (247 - 182 BCE). Odovacar can be
> blamed for the final blow to the Western Empire. The former Celtic
> areas of Raetia and Noricum had been well and truly "Romanised" by
> then too....
>
> --
> SIR - Philosopher unauthorised
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
> misled.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------

After the defeat of Vercingetorix, Julius Caesar effectively destroyed
the Gauls with savage repression and ethnic cleansing.

I understand that Odovacer ( Odacer in Gibbon) was the Gothic King who
ruled Rome after the collapse of the Western Empire.

Gibbon also wrote that he nominally acted as vice-regent to the Emperor
in Constantinople.

Bernard.

.

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