Re: The Early Germans

"Inger E.Johansson" <inger e.johansson@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in
message news:WHHFf.155387$dP1.513551@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"Alan Crozier" <name1.name2@xxxxxxxxx> skrev i meddelandet
news:IoCFf.43932$d5.199871@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Inger E.Johansson" <inger e.johansson@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in
message news:MwuFf.43922$d5.199924@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Alan,
that's why I asked you if you wanted chapters from the
Gothic
Mosaic.
Anyhow here are some of the Historians and works up to
written
before 700 AD
which definitely present more essential information than
what
most thought
them to do.
One need to compare the different sources with each other.

Small details here and there maybe but together they give
much
better
picture than expected.
There are earlier sources than Plinus the Older, but
details
either re.
Scandinavia or northern Germania resp the people, animals
and
flora
mentioned in his works can be used as a 'basic' ground for
other more
detailed information.
Plinus the older., Historia Naturalis 2,167; 4,94 resp.
4.96-100; 8,143;
17,2; 36,2

other not to be forgotten:
Amminanus Marcellinus
Dexippos Fragment 5J
Dio Cassius
Dio Chrysostomus
Eunapius (especially fragments)
Olympidorus
Orosius
Priscus (Text 9)
Procopius
Ptolomy
Sharaf Al Zamân
Sozomen
Tacitus (Annaler as well as Germania)
Zosimus

There are of course many more but these are those that's
relatively easy to
get hold of in origin texts either edited in transcribed
form
or in
pholiats. I take it that you can read Greek and Latin. Can
you
read Arabic
as well? I can't so in those cases where I had to read or
check Arabic texts
I have had to have help from an archaeologist who migrated
to
Sweden from
Iraq.

I didn't get the answer I wanted, but that is my own fault
for
posing too broad a question. I'll try again:

Inger wrote:
And the contemporary documents doesn't name Thracians
as
the
old group
Thracians but as Alemanic alternatively Gothic from
166
AD.

I have checked. your references to Pliny but find that he
does
not say anything about Alemanni in Thrace. So my question is
this:

Alan,
I guess I didn't make myself clear. Pliny is used as a
background a base for
all the rest. When he speaks of a group of people and/or
herbs, animals,
nature etc you need to have that knowledge to go on with the
other ones for
a full picture.

When we are discussing contemporary sources we have two
distinct different
types. First there are those who give a lot of information
about a certain
event and the participating persons' names. Some of them has
as Ammanianus
been present themselves when this or that happened. Some have
met with the
persons. And in some cases the used this or that epitet or
described
directly in words from where this or that person came.
In the later case you have Pliny to compare information with
together with
Ptolomy's information. Ptolomy for example spoke of
*Wigothaelf* and you
have to go deep into all texts, of course also validate them,
to get as much
information as possible. In a way same procedure as if you in
the military
tries to get as much information possible from open papers.

The other type of contemporary documents give you same events
and same
persons, more often then not from an other angle and from the
opposit sides
views. BUT what's important is that if it's the later there
almost always
are less details but more distinct epitet, belongings etc etc
then in the
former type of contemporary documents.

To get a picture of for example one of these Goths from
Tacitus' days, only
one ref as far as I know, or from 2nd century you can't get
them from one
single document you need to have the picture in full which
calls for you to
read several sources side by side comparing their information
with each
other for every single occasion when a Goth, a German, an
Alanic etc etc
participated in a special event.
Thus it's not as easy as you might have assumed.

It's dead easy to give a reference if you want to. You should
try it some time ;-)

The answer above is what you get in this open group Alan. I
did present some
of the sources needed for the picture. I didn't present exact
details, which
MS fragment etc I have studied analysed etc. That I will not
do here.
You can have it but not in the group.

If the reference you cannot present openly is to the Alans (as
you suggest above) then it is irrelvant to me anyway. I was
asking about the Alemanni.

Alan (not Aleman)

--
Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden


.

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