Re: Druidism

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 06:15:18 +0100, Doug Weller
<dweller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On 11 Sep 2006 17:36:12 -0700, in sci.archaeology, odubhain@xxxxxxxxxxx
wrote:


Doug Weller wrote:
On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 16:02:19 -0500, in sci.archaeology, Searles O'Dubhain
wrote:


"Doug Weller" <dweller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:ofq8g2hqner8u3v4e5v51eraoi6iloritr@xxxxxxxxxx
On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 14:04:05 -0500, in sci.archaeology, Searles
O'Dubhain
wrote:
[SNIP]

The name for Druids or their cognates first appears in the classical
histories of the Greeks and Romans dating back about 2400 years BP.

Ronald Hutton's The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles says
that
virtually all the Roman and Greek texts that discuss Celtic religion
date
from about 150BC to AD 100, most referring only to the tribes of
southern
Gaul, modern Provence and Languedoc.

So what are you referring to?


I was referring to the comments of the late fourth-century BCE Greek
playwright Sopater who was said by Athenaeus to have made a punning
reference to the Druids when he had one of his characters say:

"Among them is the custom,
whenever they are victorious in battle,
to sacrifice their prisoners to the gods.
So I, like the Celts, have vowed to the divine powers
to burn those three false dialecticians as an offering."

If a Greek playwright can make an oblique reference to the Druids in a
play to his audience, there must have been quite a familiarity with them
by reputation and innuendo if nothing else.

The first contact of the Greeks with the Gauls is at Massalia (near
modern day Marseille ) in the sixth century BCE. The attacks of the
Celts on Rome occurred in the fourth century BCE. The attack on Delphi
occurred in around 279 BCE. These and other stories by the Greeks and
Romans regarding those times seem to reference Druids for me.

And that's the problem. This is speculation. Interesting, but not
definitive by any means.

I
especially like the story of the Celtic warriors who were on the Capitol
Hill of Rome in the process of vanquishing the Romans who came upon some
splendidly dressed older men who were sitting in council. The Celtic
warriors stopped in their tracks, awed by the assembly and stayed their
hands from slaying. When one of the men spoke to them in Latin and
struck at them with a staff, the warriors responded by killing them all.
To me this passage echoes the Celtic respect for the safety of a Druid's
personage. They were safe from any battle and the warriors in this tale
most probably thought they'd accidentally entered into an assembly of
Druids. To harm any Druid would have been a violation of personal honor
and a breaking of the strongest taboo for a Celtic warrior. When they
discovered that these fellows were not Druids by their speech and
actions, they happily dispatched them. This was reported by the Roman
historian Livy in the late first century BCE but it was dated to 390 BCE
in his history by drawing on earlier sources.

The first specific (by name) mention of Druids among the Celts by
classical historians is contained in the work of Aristotle (circa 4th
century BCE) and Sotion of Alexandria in the early 2nd century BCE as
mentioned by Diogenes Laertius in a written work of the 3rd century CE.

But I find this: "The Druids are first referred to by pseudo-Aristotle and
Sotion in the second century B.C., the reference being preserved by
Diogenes Laertius: "There are among the Celtæ and Galatæ those called
Druids and Semnotheoi."
http://altreligion.about.com/library/texts/bl_thedruids2.htm

Which is the time period Hutton mentions. Not 4th century BC.


So your sources give reports of the Druids existing among the Celts
2200 years ago. That doesn't seem to me to negate the presence of
Druids among the Celts at a much earlier dating as the instances I've
mentioned seem to indicate. They didn't spring up over night and
achieve a position of prominence. They most probably are inherently
tied to Celtic culture from its beginnings. One of their functions was
to preserve the tales and traditions. Another was to serve as priests.
A third function was to train the artisans and teach the youth. One
might as well say there were no warriors in Celtic society before 2400
or even 2200 years ago. That has a similar disconnection in continuity
and essence of culture to my way of thinking.

2 points.

I would argue about the idea of a cohesive "Celtic culture'. I don't
think it existed.

And I don't disagree that there was some continuity, I just don't think
you can call Christianity Judaism just because of the clear continuity.

Doug, I have to agree with you. If you can call Christianity Judaism
because of their common roots, then you can also call Islam Judaism
for exactly the same reason.

In fact neither Christianity nor Islam can be regarded as a
continuation of Judaism in that both religions are separated from
Judaism by sharply dividing discontinuities in their respective
histories.

They are different religions. And for the same reason, plus the lack of
evidence, I don't see why the religion of 1500 bc has to be the religion
of 500 bc.

Doug



Eric Stevens
.

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