Re: Baaaaaaaaaaaaa
- From: prd <X_header@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 03:08:17 GMT
In sci.archaeology message news:efbi88$dft$1@xxxxxxxxx by "Uwe Müller"
<uwemueller@xxxxxxxxxx> . . . :
"prd" <X_header@xxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:7D%Rg.114942$QM6.31752@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/pre_norman_history/neoli
th
ic_age.html "
It would be a mistake to think that the Mesolithic people of Ireland
suddenly invented farming and became Neolithic. Rather, Ireland's
Mesolithic hunters were displaced or assimilated by Neolithic settlers
who gradually arrived in Ireland from Britain and brought the
technology with them. The practice of farming had spread from the
Middle East, through eastern and southern Europe to reach Britain
around 4000BC.
The support for this is the near identity of gene frequencies
in the major haplotypes between Wales and Ireland. If Northern
Ireland is a proxy for Scotland then we assume that migrations
between the mainland and Ireland took place on numerous occassions
or one occasion where larger numbers of individuals arrived.
Again it seems that it arrived in Ireland via the"http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/pre_norman_history/neol
Scotland-Antrim link. Evidence from Cashelkeelty, county Kerry,
suggests that this happened between 3900BC and 3000BC [4 p28].
it
hic_age.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/rr/pages/rr-1.shtml "
3. Severn Estuary [Wales]- c. 6500 BC
About 8,500 years ago, a 5' 6" man with size 11 feet walked along the
Severn Estuary at 2.6 miles per hour carrying a heavy load on his right
shoulder. Archaeologists deduced all this from a series of footprints
cemented in the hard clay of the Severn Estuary.
Mesolithic man would have lived in skin tents,
The first text says:" ... found the remains of mesolithic huts and ..."
Wikipedia see below even cites "... post holes indicate a very
substantial construction, ..." for 7.600 BC
If you can get me this paper.
Bamforth and Woodman, Oxford J. of Arch. 23 (2004): 21-44. Tool hoards and
Neolithic use of the landscape in north-eastern Ireland
They discuss non-permanent settlements in the neolithic period.
close to the grazing animals
same text: " ... concentrated their activities on waterways, forraging
on the shores of the sea, lakes and rivers. "
Note the favourable preservation conditions in wetland environments
though, some mesolithic sites are today only concentrations of small
scale flint implements. Those will usually not be noticed, there would
be only a small chance of archaeologic excavation.
There's lots of other places interior in Ireland that provide excellent
preservation, lots of Irish Bogs. They are running dendrochronology
out of one of the interior lakes.
BTW if you drop oyster shells into a bog, they disappear within a couple
100 years, the same is not true for wood impliments. That is the flip
side of the argument.
Same goes for the food sources mentioned.
they would hunt with flint weapons. The Severn Estuary was prime
hunter- gatherer territory as evidenced by footprints of men, red deer,
pelicans and some of the earliest sheep in the British Isles.
"
[Note if this were true it would validate that the Hoguette culture of
France and its Sheep/Goat preference would have predated LBK Neolithic
in northern france. And represente earlier gene flow.]
Why? The human tracks are dated at 6500 BCE (How?, by whom?), for the
others no date is given.
lol. but Hoguette has an unfixable early date at 5500 BCE not to mention
that there is not a trace of evidence in west central france that links
La Hoguette to Cardial Ware. Obviously 5500 BCE cannot be fixed. We do know
that CW existed 2 millenium earlier in NW italy, the problem is linking it
to other cultures like the LH.
Anywhat that report is a little BS. Archaeologist seem always to forget
that when the data stands as discontinuous, earlier dates are in order, and
earlier dates in the Holocene mean easier and shorter sea voyages between
two lands with shallow coasts.
http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/neolithic.htm "cereals.
Around 3800 BC neolithic agriculturists began arriving in large
numbers. These early farmers were the builders of the famous mounds and
passage tombs mentioned above, and which are more densely packed into
Ireland than into any other country. Domesticated cattle, sheep and
goats were imported to Ireland at the beginning of the Neolithic
period, together with
" http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/neolithic.htm
In Central European terminology that would be the middle neolithic, in
NW Europe the Megaliths.
The Irish neolithic as you know is one of the latest in its onsets, it only
begins to catch up with europe in the bronze age.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Scotland "
At the wonderfully well preserved stone house at Knap of Howar on the
Orkney island of Papa Westray (occupied from 3500 BC to 3100 BC) the
walls stand to a low eaves height, and the stone furniture is intact.
Evidence from middens shows that the inhabitants were keeping cattle,
sheep and pigs, farming barley and wheat and gathering shellfish as
well as fishing for species which have to be line caught using boats.
Finely made and decorated Unstan ware pottery links the inhabitants to
chambered cairn tombs nearby and to sites far afield including
Balbrindi and Eilean Domhnuill.
" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Scotland
BTW, I seriously doubt they were cultivating alot of wheat at this site.
They might have traded fish and animals with other sites for wheat.
I have seen alot or reports on cereals but very few reports about Ireland
or scotland that give details.
So one can basically argue on rather weak evidence that sheep culture
in norther scotland is about 3800 BC, about the same time that or
shortly thereafter sheep arrive as part of the culture.
Wait, the date of 3.800 BCE was for Ireland, Scottish sheep are a couple
of centuries younger. That may be due to errors in dating, but it may
also point to an influence to Scotland from Ireland.
See article in PaleoAnthro. Unless we are using uncalibrated dates
(and manually recalibrating them) that is a possibility.
OTOH Wikipedia says " The widespread connections these people had is
shown by offerings imported from Cumbria and Wales left on the sacred
hilltop at Cairnpapple Hill, West Lothian, as early as 3500 BC." I feel
uneasy having to imagine they had pals living 100s of km away but should
have been unable to bridge the next few hundred kms to reach the
continental neolithics for 2500 years.
Explain to me one thing then, the Shannon estuary is clear on the other
side of Ireland, right, so why would that be an early point of settlement.
The basic problem I have is that I need a genetic sampling of brittany
and normandy, if I am provided that I can tell you +/- where there is
evidence of not of long term contact between NW France and Ireland. It
would be also nice to have a break down of Ireland, which amazingly I have
for Ireland and Northern Ireland.
I don't know how to answer the question. See below.
Here my explanation woul be, that in (northern) Scotland neolithisation
offered no real advantage until the climate turned warmer. This could
explain why sheep (and neolithisation) came first to Ireland, according
to the dates given. But the British Islands show a definite lack in
sites, finds and secure datings.
I don't believe that sheep came first to Ireland, but through Cornwall
to both sides of the Irish Sea. I rely on the Evidence from Cw16 and it
suggests that Cornwall recieved specific and late genetic input from
NW france, approximately where the Hoguette culture was. That culture
was a sheep/goat specialist. This is something I feel strong about
and the reason is the Cw16 is not the only Iberian haplotypes that can
be pathed up the western coast, I got quite a few other haplotypes that are
only found in france, iberia and ireland. The problem is that portugal
at current appears to be the site of western caprid diversification, and
I have nothing that suggest the genetic path was through Portugal.
Probably that culture lagged in cornwall until these animals were adapted
and capable of moving. Critical to this is the reason why Cw16 jumped the
western channel it does not have to be sheep, but it is higher in the
groups who concentrated more on pastoral. These things are complicated,
just like LBK and genetics, if you have even 200 years in iberia many
of the carrier populations could exchange culture with northern groups
allowing for a complete dislinkage between genes and culture.
For a Pan European view on neolithics etc. see
http://wwwalt.uni-wuerzburg.de/vfg/scharl%20mageng.htm
I get the point, I have not forgotten there is a nationalist
bias in some of this research, HLA doesn't lie however, its
frequencies are what they are.
the summary of a master of arts thesis by Silviane Scharl. It has been
published, but only in German.
Think about this, Cw16 in the basque is something like 11% about 5% in
france and assume that was a west coast track soe about 9 or 10% along the
western regions, then in Cornwall 6% and Irish 4% Northern Irish 2.8% Wales
2.4%, the english 1.7%, and similar levels in Belgium, Netherlands and
Germany. Seems to me like we have a late migration to explain with no
historic evidence. Some have argued a direct migration from africa. Like I
say this is not the only evidence. In the basque there are specific middle
eastern (souther arabia or african) types that are found in increased
densities, also found in france and also found in the Irish. Therefore Cw16
appears to have been picked up along the way to NW africa and then became
somehow dominant in a migration north to Ireland.
1. Against the currents of the atlantic
2. Gene flow appears to be the eastern coast of spain, but western coast of
france. No ship can sail the baronne valley to biscayne.
3. There are other corroborating types A1:BX that are not part of the
equilibrated set. Think about this A1:B8 appears to come from northwest
africa via iberia, A2:B44 the same, A29:Cw16:B44 northwestern africa
later. I can do a reduction on Iberia, it would be messy and you will
see that A1 types come shooting up in frequency. But these are not
characteristic of any other groups that have high A1:B8, A2:B44, A2:B7
A2:B27 except the western population. So unless the gene flow is
continuous and in a single direction, it probably represents one single
migration northward, and the LD of A29:Cw16:B44 very much supports that
and so the genetic supports an independent reentry of continentals
through the west.
How I explain this is as such, A29:Cw16:B44 came up from NW France into
Cornwall and Ireland, the indigeonous Britons got pushed eastward by some
later expansions, bringing A29:Cw16:B44 to Wales and the indigeonous
people probably migrated to Ireland, so that the frequencies on the western
coast of England are suppress by migrations from the East. The proof of
that is in NW england the level of A29 = 4.0% and is higher than
wales indicating a disruption in continuity up the western coast of
england, possibly during the neolithic or later.
So to answer your question, there is the possibility that intrusive cattle
culture may have displaced some sheep culture in the west but does not mean
that people had to have bridged back and forth to Ireland, they may have
simply wiggled their way north opening habitats. I am not proporting this
as fact, as you eluded to above many 'facts' that have been reported have
not been nailed down. Don't forget the node of A29:Cw16:B44 is in Cornwall,
not Ireland on the same mass of land as Scotland. (BTW the scots have not
been A:B typed that I know of). _But_ I suspect since Ireland was so
ecologically undiversified that people did travel back and forth in
response to climate or ecological change simply because the situation
allowed it.
.
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