Re: Scientist Says Concrete Was Used in Pyramids

Archae Solenhofen <solenhofen@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

So, I understand that according to davidovits, the carved stone come
from the quarries in the Mokattan formation while the reconstituted one
would come from the Maadi formation.

Where is that claim from? That's not what that quote of Davidovits
(2004) you posted earlier states.

ftp://ftp2.geopolymer.org/geopolyme/pyramid_chapt1.pdf

It's quite clear he is discussing the Mokattan formation as the main
source or the rock aggergate... thus the Gauri (1984) and Klemm and
Klemm (1993) references.

You're completely right. I had a bad perception of the site. Davidovits
claims that the material comes from the bottom of the Wadi downward the
Giza plateau and I thought that area was already part of the Maadi
formation. The side view of the plateau
(http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/giza.htm) helped me to
understand my mistake.
So the quarries and the site which Davidovits believes the casting
material is coming from, are both part of member II of the mokattan
formation. I stand corrected.


Read the section on "natural rock" on page 3790 in Barsoun et. al.
(2006)... the halloysites (i.e. kaolinite polymorph) are not even in
the list of contents. All we get is "small amount" and the Maadi
samples had no "kaolinitic mineral". None of these natural rock
samples from Giza are "kaolinic limestone", not even remotely
close.... so why are they not testing these lithologies that have been
claimed must exist on the Giza Plateau?

That's right. They should test a sample from the stone alledged to
disaggregate. Because that leave us with speculation to do.

Now just trying to speculate.

First hypothesis:

In ftp://ftp2.geopolymer.org/geopolyme/pyramid_chapt1.pdf Davidovits
tell us that:
"It was not required to crush this stone, because it disaggregates
easily with the Nile water during floods (the Wadi is filled with water
at this time) to form a limestone mud."

Is it possible that the stone located at the bottom of the Wadi was
sufficiently weathered by the annual flood to disaggregate with little
effort? Is it possible that it was clay enriched over the years due to
partial dissolution of the limestone during the multiple flooding?
The amount of useful stone would not be large, but after all, if casted
stones were only used for the outer, inner casings and the top of the
pyramid, the amount of crushed stone necessary would not be large
either?

Second hypothesis:

The analysis of member II is made near the sphinx. Is it possible that
the composition of the member 2 in the Wadi differs slightly from that
of the member 2 at the sphinx level? The former would be much like Moris
described it.

Third hypothesis:

Barsoum claims that: "quarrying limestone is wasteful, with substantial
breakage; yet, waste piles of the expected magnitude are absent."

They kind of use this observation to build a case against the
carving-hoist theory, but I think it is a mistake. Some of the waste was
probably used to fill the gaps between the blocks of the inner core (see
Lehner in AERAGRAM, Vol5, N4, 2002). They could also have used it to
build the ramp.

But wasn't this crushed limestone the perfect starting material for the
casted stones?

The workers crushed a lot of limestone by carving around the block to
extract them from the bedrock. It is quite clear on this picture of
Khafre's quarry:

http://egyptphoto.ncf.ca/Khafre%20N-W%20quarry.jpg

Now I made a very simple calculation (hope prd will love it :-)
Let's consider that the blocks are about 2 x 1.5 x 1 m on average, the
way carved between the block is about 30 cm wide and about 10 cm of
stone had to be removed to free the stones from the bedrock.
So the volume of the block is 2 x 1.5 x 1 = 3 m3
the volume of the stone removed to free the block (3 faces) is
1.5x0.3x1 + (2+0.3)x0.3 + (2+0.3)x(1.5+0.3)x0.1 = 0.69 + 0.45 + 0.414 =
1.55 m3

So for each m3 of carved stone, you get about 0.5 m3 of crushed stone.
That's plenty enough to cast the outer and inner casing plus the top of
the pyramid.

So what do you think?



[about the bubbles in sediment ] No, it just does not apply to the rocks
of the Giza Plateau in question.

??? When I ask if air bubbles could form during the sedimentation
process (like prd claimed) you answered "Not as air bubbles formed in
soft sediments before lithification of the limestone...[...]" which I
understood as "no bubbles of air can form during the sedimetation
process."
Now I am confused by your last answer.

--
Florian

"Tout est au mieux dans le meilleur des mondes possibles"
Voltaire vs Leibniz
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Scientist Says Concrete Was Used in Pyramids
    ... "It was not required to crush this stone, ... sufficiently weathered by the annual flood to disaggregate with little ... The 2-3 foot 1i and 2i bed portions of Member II are soft limestone ... analysis of the quarry rocks of the Giza plateau. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: "garlic stone" and pyramids made of reconstituted stones.
    ... Geopolymers are not limited to limestone. ... green semi-precious variety was not of poor quality for jewelry, ... The ancient Egyptians were quite capable of carving stone ... If you go back to the paper by Davidovits about the X-Ray analysis, ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Scientist Says Concrete Was Used in Pyramids
    ... Building a pyramid was also about faith and devotion. ... I have a few remarks about the cost of a pyramid entirely made of quarry ... cost of hewn stone and concrete is identical, ... pyramid can't be compared to moving limestone concrete in bags. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Scientist Says Concrete Was Used in Pyramids
    ... Building a pyramid was also about faith and devotion. ... I have a few remarks about the cost of a pyramid entirely made of quarry ... cost of hewn stone and concrete is identical, ... pyramid can't be compared to moving limestone concrete in bags. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Scientist Says Concrete Was Used in Pyramids
    ... number of movies recommended by idealistic pundits. ... The limestone has to be soaken for days before it is usable. ... at just about any material yard, start with one stone on one corner, begin ... That is not the chemistry involve in reconstituted limestone. ...
    (sci.archaeology)