Re: The Newport Tower - some reflections, and a question


IE_Json wrote:


Inger seems to be saying that there is a drawing ("somewhere")
relating to (and contemporary with, otherwise it's useless as evidence)
the alleged Pothorst / Pining voyage in the 1470s, which shows houses
and a windmill. I'll assume for the moment that the drawing does exist,
and that it is of the appropriate period, and that P and P did make the
voyage they are alleged, but not proved, to have made. So the questions
that have to be satisfactorily answered with regard to that are:

1. Is the implication that the houses and windmill shown in the drawing
were built by Pothorst / Pining?

That was a question going thru my head when I sent the url with the image of
the drawing, looking very old type of drawing and not made by a pro btw, and
the article by the Dane. First I thought that a house wouldn't be impossible
for anyone who have a crew of 15-25 people having to stay over winter. So
that I can buy them to have built one way or an other.

The existence of a windmill suggests
something rather more permanent than "where they had to stay over
winter" - indeed it suggests a year-round settlement where crops were
grown, with a large enough population to make a windmill an
economically desirable alternative to hand-operated querns.

Agree.

2. If not, who is "in the frame" for having built houses and a windmill
on the eastern seaboard before 1500?


I'll assume the drawing really does show a windmill. As I haven't
seen it, could someone who has either find a url or at least describe
what the windmill looks like?

Here comes a problem I hadn't thought to place on the table here and now,
but we have four different answers:
* seaborn from Northern Europe before the Viking Age. Not probable but
possible. Slim chance.

Impossible. The windmill is not known in Europe until c.1150 when it
seems to have been independently invented somewhere in Flanders /
Northern France / Southern England

* Portugesean and Norwegians between 1300 to 1450 AD. More likely since we
do know that the Pothurst Pinning sailing was the forth in a row of joint
sailings. But my problem with that answer is that I am not aware of a
whalehunting seasonsettlement within a day or two from Newport.

Highly unlikely. Windmills unknown in Norway before c.1600. Windmills
not known in Portugal (debatable) until c1250.

* Irish anytime between Viking Age and 1470's.

Again, windmills imported to Ireland by the Anglo-Normans, not before
c.1300

I can't role out the possibility that Hvitmannaland were somewhere along the
eastern coast of NA.
* Scandinavians together with Dutch. Now there does exist a document, which
I am refering to in my manuscript, that gives a direction and distance from
the area we today call Manhattan were it's spoken of a Swedish-Dutch farm.
The second such north of NY. That one I know existed around 1500 AD.

I am not willing at this stage to stress either case. But I seriously doubt
the Governor's case.
Why? Over the years I understood that most here aren't familiar with
stonemason work. Neither when it comes to 'cutting' nor dressing. And yes
large cut stones can be transported long distances before being dressed. And
also specific size of stones can be ordered and transported. BUT I never
ever seen a place where a stonehouse, stonebuilding etc been made and none
of the remains from dressing, which always is needed more or less depending
fitting together, been found. If I understand it correctly no such place
been found during the latest digging.
That does surprise me no matter when it was made.

Remains from stone dressing would be small stone chips. (and I'm not
sure that the stonework of the Newport Tower can really be described as
"dressed"). What's the natural soil composition in the general
area of Newport like - are there lots of rocks and bits of stone
mixed in with it generally, in which case, would a slightly higher
concentration of rock chips arising from the minimal shaping of stone
for the tower even be noticed, especially after a century and more of
use as a public park with occasional re-landscaping and redistribution
of surface material? In any case, not being able to find evidence of
stonemasons on site either undermines every case (the Tower was set
down by space aliens, folks), or it undermines none - including the
Arnold one. It's a neutral issue.


Gareth

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