Re: Auschwitz - the "death factory" with an orchestra, theatre, hospital, cinema, complaints office


"Matt Giwer" <jull43@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Steve Marcus wrote:
"Matt Giwer" <jull43@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Steve Marcus wrote:
"Matt Giwer" <jull43@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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George wrote:
On Feb 8, 4:38 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
joerevskel...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
"5,999,999" <nighthawk6...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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The heart of the 'Holocaust,'
Why don't you and Gwier just get a room and giggle over each
other's denial
tactics.
You know, I ignore most of these squabbles because they
bring out more
believers than when showing the OT is nothing but a collection of
myths. That is
only interesting in that an event which did not merit even a
footnote in the
major first person texts on the war, those by Churchill, Eisenhower,
DeGaulle.
It draws more fanatical believers than the passing observations of
atheists
showing quite clearly to the fanatics this is is more important than
the denial
of the divinity of Jesus Christ. I find that strange but obviously
holocaustianism is treated as a religion with sacred truths of its
own.
Typical nazi denial dressed up to resemble a real post.
Go to http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/imt.htm where they have
the Trial transcripts..
And not one word on gas chambers. Thank you for making the case.
Indeed, thank YOU for making the case. From the very same site, the
findings regarding War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity, as read (in
part) by Judge John J. Parker, one of the judges at Nuremberg:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/judwarcr.htm#civilian

"The evidence relating to war crimes has been overwhelming, in its
volume and its detail. It is impossible for this Judgment adequately to
review it, or to record the mass of documentary and oral evidence that
has been presented. The truth remains that war crimes were committed on
a vast scale, never before seen in the history of war. ...

MURDER AND ILL-TREATMENT OF CIVILIAN POPULATION
....

A certain number of the concentration camps were equipped with gas
chambers for the wholesale destruction of the inmates, and with
furnaces for the burning of the bodies. Some of them were in fact used
for the extermination of Jews as part of the " final solution " of the
Jewish problem. Most of the non-Jewish inmates were used for labour,
although the conditions under which they worked made labour and death
almost synonymous terms."

I suppose you believe that if you lie often enough, you can get away
with it. This is but one (minor) example of the lying engaged in by
Holocaust deniers such as yourself, Giwer.
I suppose that people will in fact some day read what I wrote and
usually what I respond to.

The claim was there were confessions to gas chambers in Nuremberg. I
said there was none in the transcription. You have not produced anything
from the transcript. Nor have you produced a statement by an SS member
to the effect that there were gas chambers. You have produced something
that is not footnoted and cannot be determined to be other than the
invention of the writer.

Lying ***, what was quoted was a finding by a Judge of the Court. Do
you suppose that it was based on nothing at all? It was based on
testimony, from liberating military, from liberated camp survivors, and
from German prisoners, as well as on documentary evidence.

So me the testimony it was based on if you believe it was based upon
testimony. And then show it was by SS types. If you do not do that then
you don't have jack.

Hmmm... First your claim was "[A]nd not one word on gas chambers." Now,
when shown the findings of the Nuremberg court, you want to see testimony
from "SS types." Are you saying, for example, that testimony from US
soldiers who liberated the camps is unworthy of belief?


As for what a judge could write, I have read the rules governing the
Nuremberg proceedings and there is nothing prohibiting the judge from
inventing anything he wanted as there was no appeal from lies in the
findings.

Except, fool, that there were other judges, court transcripts, newspaper
reporters, and the whole world was watching. Do you seriously assert that a
judge made up a finding out of whole cloth?


Of course I have quit hoping believers will ever be bright enough to
respond to the subject at hand.

You have a set, ***, to accuse someone else of not being "bright
enough." You are betting into a royal flush holding a six-high hand, and
the only people who think that your hand is a winner are clods like you
who haven't two neurons in what passes for your brains. You live,
instead, on bigotry and hatred. It's all you are capable of.

When you produce what was claimed you will have a case. Until then you
don't have jack.

As noted above, it was YOUR claim that the Yale website contained not one
word regarding gas chambers. That claim has been proven to be wrong.
Period. End of YOUR credibility. End of story.


Apart from the excuvation of the bone ash deposits this has nothing
to
do with archaeology
Apart from the absence of the thousands of cubic yards of "bone ash"
required not existing it has everything to do with the same kind of
sham archaeology that constantly finds Noah's Ark and David's Palace
and Solomon's Stables and all the rest of the crap believers claim
exist but is unknown to science.
--
If the US recognizes the right of Jews to Palestine how can it deny
Utah to
the Latter Day Saints?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3739
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
Zionism http://www.giwersworld.org/disinfo/disinfo.phtml a4
Easily. The Latter Day Saints are about a millenium late in settling
Utah as compared to Native Americans. On the other hand, the Jewish
People lived in and around the present location of Israel more than a
millenium prior to the birth of Christ. Nor have the Latter Day Saints
been the victims of genocide.
There is no evidence there were any Jews or Judeans prior to the 2nd c.
BC. The people and the religion appear out of no where without the least
archaeological or historical evidence of existence prior to that
century. They appear to be an invented religion like the LDS.

http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/merneptah-stele-faq.htm gives
evidence from the 13th century BC for the existence of Israel as a
people.

There is nothing on that a non-believer can find to support that
assertion.

Fancy words. What do they mean? Clearly, there was a people known as
Israel, unless of course you believe that a 13th century BC was in on the
plot to convince 20th and 21st century people that a Holocaust that never
happened actually happened.

Even the translations of it vary and most call it a place. Further it
recounts a war against Libya. That does not explain why believers want to
find names of places to the east of Egypt on it.

Wrong again, schweinhund. "The black granite stela primarily commemorates a
victory in a campaign against the Libu and Meshwesh Libyans and their Sea
People allies, but its final two lines refer to a prior military campaign in
Canaan in which Merneptah states that he defeated Ashkelon, Gezer, Yanoam
and Israel among others.[1] " From:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele

I leave it to you to go to the link and check the footnote. You'll find
that the quote is from a very authoritative source.



http://www.momentmag.com/olam/Apr06/MOM-2006-04_mazar.html is one of
many links that can be found that describe, at a minimum, artifacts
illustrating the existence of an Israelite earlier than 2nd BC (that is,
one doesn't have to believe in either the historicity of King David or
the reiligious authenticity of the Bible to understand the significance
of the bulla dating to the late 7th century BC.

For some 50-60 years most people have agreed to the "out of Africa" theory
and have thus agreed that humans have always lived in bibleland since they
left Africa. Also all primates once lived there including Homo Erectus,
Gibbons and Orangutans. Showing that people lived there does not show they
were the mythical people in the bible stories.

One does not need to believe that any of the religious aspects of the bible
are true in order to decide that the mention of a person in the bible and
the existence of a bulla naming that person in order to be very impressed
that the bulla is evidence of a historical person who was named in the
bible. That person was Jewish. The bulla is dated 7th century BC. You
can't tap dance around that by mentioning human migrations dating, at a
minimum, to hundreds of thousands of years prior to the date of the bulla.

This is SCI.archaeology and thus the rules of science apply. That means a
book of magic and miracles has no standing whatsoever. Get used to it.

It's the bulla that has scientific standing. It is dated to the 7th
century, and names a Jewish person. Get over it, schweinhund.


That aside, having lived in a place many centuries ago is not a claim to
the place today. That they all left voluntarily or converted to Islam or
Christianity does not support any such claim. If there are those dumb
enough to believe the legend that they were expelled by Rome, then they
have a gripe with Italy not the Palestinians.

Let's see. You argue that having lived many centuries ago in a place and
leaving voluntarily does not support a claim to that place. So the
Palestinian claim to today's Israel is based on ...?

Their claim is to their private property which is independent of who has
sovereignty over the land. They owned their personal and family land.
Europeans showed up, drove them off and stole it. They have never
abandoned their claim. They want it back. They have every right to the use
of deadly force to gain the return of their private property from the
thieves. Holding stolen property even though not the original thief does
not mean innocence rather equal guilt in the crime.

One problem with your comments is that they neglect to mention that
virtually all of the so-called Palestinians who were in the land of Israel
left voluntarily, not because the Israelis drove them away. In fact, they
left at the behest of the Arab League, who warned them that either the Jews
would slaughter them, or that they would be killed in the coming war to
drive the Jews into the sea. A second problem is that virtually none of the
so-called Palestinians "owned" the land; most were living on land owned by
absentee landlords.

The third problem is that in the British Mandate and the Balfour Declaration
of 1917, Britain recognised Jewish demand for a homeland, and the Jewish
population increased from 10% in 1918 to 30% in 1936. In 1937 it was decided
by Britain to partition Palestine with Jewish and Arab states; however, this
idea was dropped as WWII loomed. After WWII Jewish immigration grew to such
an extent that Britain, trying to avert confrontation between Arab and Jew
slowed the process resulting in Jewish terrorism against British troops. The
Palestine problem was submitted to the UN in 1947 who passed the resolution
of partition. Britain ended the mandate on 14th May 1948 when the
independent state of Israel in Palestine was established. In spite of the UN
plan of 1947 Palestine ceased to exist as a political entity after the Arab
Israeli war of 1948."

Thus, the land in question was under the sovereignty of Britain, and the UN
then partitioned the land, with the world voting to create the state of
Israel. It seems to me that no one stole anything; the Turks lost
sovereignty, and the new sovereign partitioned the land per UN vote. And of
course those Palestinians who chose to remain in Israel after the partition,
were accorded full Israeli citizenship.

In short, your view of history is distorted to say the least, and bull***
to call a spade a spade.


Having lived on the land (in most cases not a claim to having owned the
land per se) and having left it in 1948-1949 VOLUNTARILY as a result of
them being told to do so by their Arab Bretheren who warned that they
would be killed in the war to push the Jews into the sea. In fact,
today's Palestinians weren't Palestinians in 1948, were they, Matty?

Leaving to avoid a war zone does not in any manner mean forfeiting
property rights.

You are assuming that those who left did so at the insistence or behest of
the Israeli Jews. You are, however, wrong.


That said Tom Segev, Benny Morris and several other ISRAELI JEWS have
using the records of the government of Israel to show they were forced to
leave by JEWS and that narrative is a pack of lies suitable only for
children too young to face the reality that their parents are thieves and
murderers.

Citations??


But what are facts to morons like you, Giwer? You needn't bother to
respond to this post, Giwer, you Nazi son of a bitch, because my
present post says all that needs saying with respect to you and your
ilk. You've been caught in a lie, your credibility (rather any
tattered thread thereof which you imagined that you had) is gone, and I
won't waste further time with you.

You are clearly ignorant of history and archaeology. You have some idiot
delusion that members of a religion have a claim to land because members
of that religion happened to be there a couple thousand years ago.

They certainly have a right to purchase the land. And they certainly
have a legal right pursuant to international law, since the country was
established per UN vote.

The established sovereignty only. It did not have the power to take away
private property and in fact did not do so but demanded the rightful
owners be permitted to return to their property.

Wrong.


Genetic studies have been done. They are conclusive. The Palestinians
and the Sephardic Jews are the same people. The Ashkenazi from eastern
Europe are not related to them. Even their ancestors never lived there
even if that were a recognized basis for a claim to the personal
property of other people.

Genetics notwithstanding, the Palestinian people and the Israelies are
not the same people.

Genetics rules. This is a SCIENCE newsgroup. If you want to talk mythology
find an appropriate newsgroup.

My ancestors are Polish and Hungarian. Genetically, we are the same people.
Politically we are not. Culturally, we are not. We do not even uniformly
share the same religion. Being Jewish is a religious thing. There are
Ethiopian Jews, for example, who share nothing at all genetically with
European Jews.


The former have been taught from birth, and their ancestors were taught
from birth, that their religion dictates that Jews are for killing. The
latter have been taught, from birth, that their heritage and their
religion is "Thou Shalt Not Kill."

If they were taught not to kill why did they murder so many tens of
thousands of Palestinians as warnings to force 750,000 to flee Palestine?
That is from Israeli records and established by jewish Israeli historians.

Citations to prove the claim of murder of many tens of thousands of
Palestinians. And I mean credible citations, schweinhund.

Come back when you are old enough to face what is taught in Israeli
gradeschools these days.

LOL. In schools throughout all Muslim lands, school children are taught
that Jews bake bread with Muslim blood, that Jews stole Palestine, that Jews
are subhumans and the enemies of Allah. In schools in Israel, Jews are
taught history, which includes the history of the Jews in so-called
Palestine, in which pogroms rivaling those in Eastern Europe were regularly
initiated by Arab Muslims.

Steve
--
The above posting is neither a legal opinion nor legal advice,
because we do not have an attorney-client relationship, and
should not be construed as either. This posting does not
represent the opinion of my employer, but is merely my personal
view. To reply, delete _spamout_ and replace with the numeral 3


.