Re: Cattle DNA supports Anatolian origin for Etruscans

On Feb 15, 3:08 pm, "Uwe Müller" <uwemuel...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"grapheus" <graph...@xxxxxxx> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:1171530780.595170.202210@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Feb 15, 7:57 am, "Uwe Müller" <uwemuel...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:> "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb im

Newsbeitragnews:1171488146.183217.259170@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Herodotus redeemed, a DNA project with a demonstrable result.

On the origin of the Etruscan civilisation

* 00:01 14 February 2007
* NewScientist.com news service
* Michael Day

One of anthropology's most enduring mysteries - the origins of the
ancient Etruscan civilisation - may finally have been solved, with a
study of cattle.

This culturally distinct and technologically advanced civilisation
inhabited central Italy from about the 8th century BC, until it was
assimilated into Roman culture around the end of the 4th century BC.

The origins of the Etruscans, with their own non-Indo-European
language, have been debated by archaeologists, geneticists and
linguists for centuries. Writing in the 5th century BC, the Ancient
Greek historian Herodotus claimed that the Etruscans had arrived in
Italy from Lydia, now called Anatolia in modern-day Turkey.

To try and discover more about the Etruscans' movements, Marco
Pellecchia at the Catholic University of the Sacred Heart in Piacenza,
Italy, and colleagues have analysed mitochondrial DNA in modern herds
of Bos Taurus cattle in the north, south and central regions of Italy.
This genetic material is passed down the female line from mother to
offspring.
Genetic revelations

The team found that almost 60% of the mitochondrial DNA in cows in the
central Tuscan region of the country - where the Etruscan civilisation
is thought to have arisen - was the same as that in cows from Anatolia
and the Middle East. There was little or no genetic convergence
between cows from the north and south of Italy and those from Turkey
and the Middle East, the researchers say.

Pellecchia notes that no archaeological or genetic traces of Etruscan
culture have been found elsewhere between Turkey and Italy. This,
combined with the Etruscans' famed nautical prowess leads Pellecchia
to conclude that the Etruscans and their cattle arrived in Italy by
sea, and not by land.

Mark Thomas, a human geneticist at University College London in the
UK, says that European cattle tend to be genetically very similar, so
the study's conclusion is plausible.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11174-on-the-origin-of-the-etru...

snip >

There is nothing indicating any relation between the imported cattle and
the
Etruscans,
Wrong !.. THe Etruscans' and the cattle's areas are the same.

Just read the text: "The team found that almost 60% of the mitochondrial DNA
in cows in the central Tuscan region of the country - where the Etruscan
civilisation is thought to have arisen'.

The FACT is OK. It's the conclusion which is wrong.
It doesn't matter where there is 60% of the DNA : because it has to be
found, of course, in the "most favourable area for cows' breeding".



So the DNA is from central Tuscany while the Etruscans, and the bocca
quadrata people, spread over a greater area. Did they stop breeding cattle?
Did they import cattle from other regions to raise outside central Tuscany?
No.

Are there any other archaeologic cultures, or people, that share the
limitation to central Tuscany with the Anatolian cattle? Maybe, but they
seem not to have considered any other option besides the Etruscan one.


so why were the Etruscans selected as culprits?
For the motive hereabove mentioned : the area is the same.

It is not, as is clearly stated in the text.

Because the authors were fascinated by the 60% bulk in Central
Toscany, instead of focalizing upon the WHOLE area, even with small
percentages !..

Bocca Quadrata and early
Etruscans are found well outside central Tuscany.

of course !..
What you didn't understand is that I was not defending the authors'
theory, but the Pittau-Faucounau's ..


And on top of that, the texts says the Etruscan arose in Central Tuscany,
and it says the Etruscans came from outside of Italy. Both options can't be
true at the sam time. If cattle and Etruscan arrived from the outside, the
distribution of the DNA has no relation to any Etruscans, especially not to
a region "where the Etruscan civilisation is thought to have arisen".

If otoh the Etruscan civilisation was formed in Italy , there is nothing to
indicate the introduction of the Anatolian cattle and the rise of the
Etruscans happened at the same time and there is no need to invent a
maritime introduction of cattle.

Simple logic is all that is needed to see, that the text does not provide a
scientific reasoning.

The cattle in
question could have gotten to Italy with the neolithisation, during the
bronze age, the roman empire, with byzantine armies etc.
Il this case, the cattle of Anatolian origin would have had a
different area. If, for instance, it would have came by land with the
Neolithisation, one would find it in the Northern Italy.

Depending on what you mean by northern Italy, early Etruscans had settled up
to the river Po and beyond, being driven back by celtic people in later
times. If early Etruscany had introduced the cattle, why is it only found in
Central Tuscany and not in all the areas populated by early Etruscans?

I repeat : because the authors of the paper were focalizing upon the
60% of their mesurements !..


Or to give the question another angle, if the cattle arrived via the sea,
why is it not found in western Tuscany, at the sea side, where traditional
cattle farming has been done since late Roman times, in the Maremma?

The authors didn't say that the DNA was totally absent in this zone !


As someone already pointed out, import of cattle to better the breeding
stock would have mostly relied on importing bulls, not cows.

YES. But when you want to import cattle BY SEA, it's easier to import
calves on a small ship, like they had at that time !!!

That implys, that the Etruscan could not tell cows from bulls in younger
animals.

Or find interesting to import both !!!!

If you absolutely want to connect Etruscan maritime knowledge with
the distribution of mtDNA, the logical hypothesis would be, that the cows
were breeding stock already in the country, while the Etruscans improved the
genetic lines by importing bull calves from outside.

But than, again, there would be no logical connection between the mtDNA and
the Etruscans.

And though the
etruscans were renowned as pirates, their vessels did not normally reach
Anatolia
Of course !.. They came FROM Anatolia as immigrants a few generations
after the big 1200 BC- catastrophe (tsunami provoked by the "Second
Theran Collapse" (See "Les Peuples de la Mer et leur Histoire" by
J.Faucounau).

Citing the title of a book is no argument.

Surely, when people REFUSE to read it !!!!

You have done that before, and if
you want to continue with that, I see no need to reply. That is religion,
not science.

because Science is, in YOUR opinion, DECIDING a priori WHAT A
SCIENTIST MUST READ or not ????


And since there is a very reliable case of autochthonous development for
most of the Etruscans material culture, and little or nothing to indicate
early contacts with Anatolia.

THis is ONE theory. Maybe it's the one you support. It's not
necessarily the Historical truth !..


The date you mentioned was 1200 BC, which Etruscan finds show Anatolian
influences at that time? Which find show etruscan pottery, metallurgy,
settlements structures, pattern of land use and maritime knowledge at that
time? None.

BALONEY !.. You are objecting with guesses to a theory that you don't
know !!! This is not serious !


and would have had a hard time transporting enough cows across the
seas.
Not if they were transporting calves..

One bull, transported at whatever age, could have left more offspring than
dozens of cows. But it would ruin the 'theory' about the mtDNA as being from
stock imported by Etruscans. So again, there is no logical connection
between the Etruscans and the cows.

That's is YOUR opinion !..


Ah yes, and then there is the archaeological record, which shows a
continuing development of the material remains of the Etruscan culture
from
Italian predecessors, the bocca quadrata culture.
This is not an objection to the theory. A few immigrants don't make
disappear all trace of the previous cultures. They just bring new
cultural material with them...

Maybe you should look at some distribution maps. If you want immigrants
arriving across the sea, you should be able to name some traits that they
introduced new into Italian culture. And these should be found at the sites
the new immigrants supposedly settled. Quite the contrary, the cows are
found in central Tuscany

Once more, this is not true !!! 60% are found in Central Toscan. What
about the 40% missing ????

, while early Etruscans settled along the coast and
up north, areras without the mtDNA from Anatolian cattle.

So for you 40% = zero ???


So, the only scientific observation is, that the mtDNA of central Italian
modern cattle has closely comparable parallels in Anatolian and Middle
Eastern modern (?) cattle.
YES.

That cancels the Etruscans as culprits, and leaves a wide gap to be filled
with speculation. Could the cattle have been introduced by the Duce from
Anatolia?

As the middle Eastern origin seems to be
uninteresting, not more than a passing remark, even the connection
Italy-Anatolia is speculation only.
WRONG CONCLUSION? coming from a preconveived idea of yours and from
your lack of knowledge of the Pittau-Faucounau's theory.

Allright, than read the text again,

WHY are you coming back again to the text of the article, when I take
in consideration ONLY the results of the mDNA research and explain
them by ANOTHER theory ????

they say the mtDNA "was the same as that
in cows from Anatolia and the Middle East" not that the DNA was only found
in Anatolia. So who has preconceived ideas, that keep him from performing
elementary task like reading to at least a basic degree? There were two
vital infos in that text, and a couple of logical mistakes. You missed all
of them, because you did not care about the archaeology but only wanted to
advertise your preconceived ideas.

How is that?

Btw, I'm not 15 anymore, so my eyesight has decreased a little, but I can
still read without having to resort to CAPITALS. It does not further your
cause to appear to be hysterically shouting.


Just put some cotton-balls into your hears !.. Because I love using
CAPITAL to mark what is important...

grapheus

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Cattle DNA supports Anatolian origin for Etruscans
    ... language, have been debated by archaeologists, geneticists and ... now called Anatolia in modern-day Turkey. ... of Bos Taurus cattle in the north, south and central regions of Italy. ... combined with the Etruscans' famed nautical prowess leads Pellecchia ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Cattle DNA supports Anatolian origin for Etruscans
    ... assimilated into Roman culture around the end of the 4th century BC. ... now called Anatolia in modern-day Turkey. ... of Bos Taurus cattle in the north, south and central regions of Italy. ... combined with the Etruscans' famed nautical prowess leads Pellecchia ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Cattle DNA supports Anatolian origin for Etruscans
    ... now called Anatolia in modern-day Turkey. ... of Bos Taurus cattle in the north, south and central regions of Italy. ... combined with the Etruscans' famed nautical prowess leads Pellecchia ... Did they import cattle from other regions to raise outside central Tuscany? ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Cattle DNA supports Anatolian origin for Etruscans
    ... now called Anatolia in modern-day Turkey. ... of Bos Taurus cattle in the north, south and central regions of Italy. ... combined with the Etruscans' famed nautical prowess leads Pellecchia ... Did they import cattle from other regions to raise outside central Tuscany? ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Cattle DNA supports Anatolian origin for Etruscans
    ... language, have been debated by archaeologists, geneticists and ... now called Anatolia in modern-day Turkey. ... of Bos Taurus cattle in the north, south and central regions of Italy. ... combined with the Etruscans' famed nautical prowess leads Pellecchia ...
    (sci.archaeology)
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