Re: Cattle DNA supports Anatolian origin for Etruscans

On 16 Feb 2007 21:47:40 -0800, in sci.archaeology, Day Brown wrote:

On Feb 16, 2:42 am, "Uwe Müller" <uwemuel...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Neither art nor technology were singular, but developed in the context of
what is called the Pan European late bronze age culture.
I dont claim to be an Etruscan expert, but the lifelike character of
the art sure looks Minoan to me in an era when so many other cultures
rendered forms in rigid mechanical traditions.

As for Minoan culture to be matriarchic, I wouldn't know. The name is
derived from king Minos, not queen Minos, and there is little to indicate
political positions of power were exclusively held by women.
Well, dont spoze that many do know, or frankly have given it much
thot. The documents we have come from *patriarchic* cultures, so you
havta figure out how to subtract the spin.

What strikes me, is not what they found in Minoan remains, but what
they did *NOT*. What ancient culture that you know had kings, which
didnt leave the names of those kings plastered all over the place? It
aint like the Minoans were not literate.

Funny you don't mention that Minoan texts are also few and far between and
we aren't even sure about translations. Most of the texts we have are
economic records, which doesn't help a lot. We don't even know what they
called themselves, so why should you assume we'd know the names of their
rulers?

We know very little about them. We know that goddess worship was extremely
important to them. We know that they were a mercantile culture. We know
palaces were important. We know that they didn't fortify them, and that is
one of the main reasons why people often assume a lack of armed conflict
in Minoan culture, but Shang China and the Mayans lacked fortified centres
but still engaged in warfare. Their swords were the finest of their time
in the area. There are what may be guardhouses on eastern Crete. Their
longboats may have been built for war. And their contemporaries certainly
practiced warfare.
We simply don't know enough to be sure.

And we know what their
thrones are like. The monumental architecture, collunade, then the
great hall with the throne on the back wall on a high dias with the
images of the King's armed goon squads looking down at us. Lots of
images of predatory carnivores and raptors. So- what's at Knossus? You
can see the throne at http://dc-pc.org/artifax/artifax.html kinda down
a page a ways.

When you come in from the coast road to Knossus, the throne room is
the first door on your right, the size of an ordinary class room. The
throne sits on the floor. And on the wall behind the throne? flowers.
Where in Minoan art do we see the depiction of threatening armed men?

Which does suggest that warfare wasn't important to them, ok. As a nation
built upon trade, that seems quite feasible, but I'd be surprised if they
couldn't defend themselves. And evidently there is Minoan art showing
warriors using spears to stab people

Then of course there's the evidence of human sacrifice.


There is another culture, rather well documented, to compare: Kucha.
Again, we have the written records of patriarchic Chinese scribes that
refer to kings. But- go look at the art the Kuchans themselves left
us. No Kings. I have a copy of the Maitreyasamiti Texts in Tocharian
A, which dates from the 5th century, but is clearly a copy of a much
earlier document because it is a conversation between the Living
Buddha and the Gautamid *queen* of Kucha. If Kuchans had a king,
Buddha would have been talking to him.

Why couldn't they have had both kings and queens? Your use of evidence is
selective. That's because you are trying to prove your beliefs, rather
than just follow the evidence.


Also at the above link is a photo of a fresco found at Akrotiri. Its a
city scape, with penthouse balconies in which we see... pairs of
women, what men there are, are *behind* the women. They are looking
out over the harbor (not shown in this photo, but on the original
fresco) at a boat coming in. Well, we know the usual scene where the
king comes down to the dock to welcome the returning ship with his
armed guards.

What usual scene? Any evidence?

What we do have is the population greeting the returning fleet.

We do of course have a scene of men chatting at the well and women doing
the work of carrying water, why didn't you mention that one? Doesn't fit
into your preconceived ideas?

What do we see here? I count 19 bare breasted bimbos in
miniskirts. No wonder the sailors were eager to get there.

They dug into the streets looking for the burnt rubble of previous
cities. What they found instead, was a municipal sewer & water system,
which included a feed from volcanic hot springs so that the bathrooms
had *hot* and cold running water. And flush toilets. Where else in
history do you see a patriarchic culture which went to the bother to
plumb the houses like this?

Gender sterotyping, tsk tsk. We also have scenes of warriors at Akrotiri.


Both at Kucha and Knossus before the Mycenaean warriors took over, its
not what there, but whats missing: slums.

I could go on, but surely you understand that the scribes of the
warrior class would take pains to hide any trace of matriarchy. They
were largely successful, altho cultural traces remain even today.
Gibbon commented that the Sitonnes were ruled by women. He refers to
what we now know are the ancestors of the Swedes, whose women have
been among the most liberated on the planet. Matriarchy does empower
men, but not those of the warrior class. So- the signs of matriarchy
are not domination by women instead of men, but *egalitarianism*. Only
those cultures which respect the power and rights of women have it.

There are likewise traces in Roman culture, where Etruscan senators
were ritually installed in office by the matriarchs of the tribe. The
growing mysogeny of Roman culture is obvious, so if you back track, at
what point do you decide that the process did not go all the way back
to matriarchy?

Its clear that those who have the power to dominate generally will.
But- the witches of Europe had the power to cure, and to *curse*. In
ancient times superstition was a very powerful check on the warrior
class who instinctively understood there was a problem with their
abuse and murder. And while the great armies they assembled fill the
records of history, you havta look a little closer to see the
pandemics that broke out among them so that the men who stayed in the
gene pools were the beta males who stayed home, and stayed out of it.

Another problem the warrior class had, was that, when they butchered
the witches, they also wiped out the midwives. As a result, and Gibbon
makes this perfectly clear, the population gradually declines. it'd be
useful to see a forensic report on Etruscan skeletons to determine
whether they were well nourished in childhood. Typically, patriarchic
systems dont do well at it.

You write as though it were fact what is actually your speculation.

Doug
--
Doug Weller --
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Amun - co-owner/co-moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amun/

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Cattle DNA supports Anatolian origin for Etruscans
    ... What strikes me, is not what they found in Minoan remains, but what ... didnt leave the names of those kings plastered all over the place? ... There is another culture, rather well documented, to compare: ... warrior class would take pains to hide any trace of matriarchy. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Cattle DNA supports Anatolian origin for Etruscans
    ... We know that they were a mercantile culture. ... And evidently there is Minoan art showing ... But a warrior with a short sword would ... warrior class would take pains to hide any trace of matriarchy. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Cattle DNA supports Anatolian origin for Etruscans
    ... didnt leave the names of those kings plastered all over the place? ... Where in Minoan art do we see the depiction of threatening armed men? ... history do you see a patriarchic culture which went to the bother to ... warrior class would take pains to hide any trace of matriarchy. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Cattle DNA supports Anatolian origin for Etruscans
    ... didnt leave the names of those kings plastered all over the place? ... Where in Minoan art do we see the depiction of threatening armed men? ... history do you see a patriarchic culture which went to the bother to ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Cattle DNA supports Anatolian origin for Etruscans
    ... What strikes me, is not what they found in Minoan remains, but what ... didnt leave the names of those kings plastered all over the place? ... Where in Minoan art do we see the depiction of threatening armed men? ... There is another culture, rather well documented, to compare: ...
    (sci.archaeology)