SV: North America's Bronze Age?


Alan Crozier <name1.name2@xxxxxxxxx> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:MKFYh.39591$E02.15900@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"johansson" <1732johansson@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:ezvYh.39547$E02.15754@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Correct Alan,
but the question I rised was due to the fact that many of the earliest
Bronze Age items in the Old World according to many, some you may find
while
searching for 'Brons' in Google (please observe Alan Swedish
spelling),
seems to have been found/made by practise of melting Copper using ore
with
tin as the second mineral.

I don't understand. Could you try dividing your texts into sentences?

No I don't. But you seem to have missed the last sentences in my first
article to the group.
"....this seem to indicate either that people with knowledge of what to look
for
and how to 'process'/use the Copper at least might have made same 'finding'
as done in parts of the Old World where Bronze first were found/made from
Copper melting in charcoal fires. Provided of course that at least some
tinoxide existed in Copper raw material as it did here in the Old World."

What I learnt over the years as a teacher from schoolbooks as well as when I
studied this parts at university is the same as told at this url
<http://susning.nu/Brons> ".....Av en ren slump upptäckte man att vissa
kopparmalmer, som även innehöll tennoxid, kunde rödglödgas i träkolseld, så
att legeringen brons bildades." I don't hesitate to think that same finding
of the alloy could have been made anywhere in the world where the Copper ore
contained Tinoxide.




First of all, what do you mean by "Bronze Age items"? Items manufactured
in the Bronze Age could be made of bronze, gold, wood, flint, leather,
etc. Do you mean "bronze items"?

All. Look at what the Inca's made before the Spaniards arrived. Gold items
which had decorative stones and allows which in some cases Goldsmiths today
have hard when trying to copy. Bronze tools and weapons, as I wrote in a
previous answer.


You seem to be saying that, "according to many", bronze is made by
(s)melting copper mixed with tin. Isn't that the definition of bronze
according to EVERYONE?

That's not what I was saying. Please read the Swedish text again and than
the quote from my first article under this subject line. It's crystal clear
what I mean if you do and that's why I suggested that you looked up 'Brons'
Swedish spelling in Google.


Now we seen sentense like "Among the findings are meticulously
arranged
human remains; gold,
gilt copper, and bronze artifacts" (Tombs of Pre-Inca Elite Discovered
Under
Peru Pyramid
Kelly Hearn in Buenos Aires, Argentina for National Geographic News
November
27, 2006)
and we do know that at least the Inca's had Bronze tools and weapons
before
the Spaniards arrived, thus it's at least proven (? with reservation
for
diffusion from the Old World prior to 1100 when cast found in Bolivia
is
dated to) that Bronze was known in South America. Now this opens the
possibilities that it might have been found/made/produced what ever
you like
in North America sometime between 5000 BP and 2000 BP. That we don't
know,
if that's true, that Bronze artifacts exists in North American ground
doesn't exclude the possibility that someone in America knew of Bronze
before Columbus set sail. Does it?

Well, human history is full of possibilities that can't be excluded. It
can't be ruled out that Pope Gregory the Great designed the first
bicycle, or that Julius Caesar contemplated invading Ecuador, but we
have no evidence for it.

Neither of the possibilities you suggested is valid in the Bolivian Bronze
cast case, 1100 AD.
There are two possible cases and only three.
*Either Bronze was known at least somewhere in South America prior to 1100
AD.
or
* By coincidence archaeologists managed to find the case where Bronze first
came to be produced in South America.

Now both possible answers in themselves give two possible ways for the
knowledge of how Bronze came to be produced in Bolivia:
* Either the first 'production' in the New World came to be due to pure
coincidence during melting of Copper ore which had tinoxide in the ore.
(Note that this could and probably did happen in many places over so many
thousand years when Copper was melted).
or
* The first 'production' was a result of Diffusion, one way or an other.

No other possibilities exist. Chose which one you like, but I would think
the first possible answer in each of the two lines to be at least more
probable than the second answers.... At least from what we know today.

Inger E

Alan



.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Bronze Age in the Baltic
    ... bronze in the Baltic come from in that period? ... Bronze Age copper exports?? ... central settlements, the high-tech smiths working with complicated technics ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: North Americas Bronze Age?
    ... what do you mean by "Bronze Age items"? ... produced what ever you like in North America sometime between 5000 BP ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: North Americas Bronze Age?
    ... what do you mean by "Bronze Age items"? ... doesn't exclude the possibility that someone in America knew of Bronze ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: who sells bronze sheet??
    ... I work primarily in copper, but silicon bronze is the preferred material for sculptures, especially if you need to weld them. ... You can TIG it, DC with argon, like TIG on steel, but more current. ...
    (rec.crafts.metalworking)
  • Re: Copper Casting In America (Trevelyan)
    ... >>believe that casting wasn't done. ... The annealing of copper would ... >>bring it to melting temperature often enough for smaller thinner bits. ... > (Bronze is a different matter, of course, but there still has been ...
    (sci.archaeology)