Re: Roman amphorae from a Roman shipwreck?

On May 30, 10:59 am, "Uwe Müller" <uwemuel...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Tom McDonald" <kilt...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:I8f7i.3245$6q.1990@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Eric Stevens wrote:
On Tue, 29 May 2007 21:50:34 GMT, "johansson"
<1732johans...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Eric Stevens <eric.stev...@xxxxxxxxx> skrev i

diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:s73p535ao82kgblqv4ft2vepq55eso7...@xxxxxxxxxx





<snip>

I am particularly struck by the statement "I understand from the
Portugese Archaeological Service that there are several hundred Roman
shipwreck-sites along the Brazilian coast, all apparently ships that
had lost their sails and drifted across the Atlantic."

First of all, if true, why is this fact not more widely known? Perhaps
it is not true?

Second, I find it hard to believe that 'several hundred Roman' ships
were carried uncontrollably across the Atlantic to end up wrecked on
the coast of Brazil without at least one managing to find its way back
to Europe. Is there anything in the historical record which suggests
that a ship managed to return after such a voyage?
What route and what trade would lead to the loss of so many Roman era
ships? Almost certainly it lay outside the Mediterranean. Whatever it
was, it sounds particularly dangerous.
Eric, remember the number of by the Goths stolen ships sailing out via
Gibraltar never heard of again.

No, I don't. I've never heasrd anything about this which might result
in several thousand being wrecked on the Brazilian coast.

The claim is several hundred, not several thousand--though I know
you just mis-typed. :-)

But I appreciate the impulse behind the unintentional inflation.
If there were actually that many known Roman-era Old World
shipwrecks off Brazil, I would have thought it would have been
mentioned in, for instance, the 'Roman Head' discussion. Surely,
if so many ships had gone to grief on that coast, a case should
have been made that the head, if it is Roman, could have gotten
to Mexico by trade. Or, of course, that an as yet unknown Roman
shipwreck in the Caribbean or the Gulf of Mexico could have been
the source.

In any case, I'd like to see some solid reference. Will's comment
is second-hand, and I begin to wonder whether she was conflating
a Portuguese government comment about Roman-era wrecks off
Portugal with a comment about Brazil. Several hundred Roman-era
ships coming to grief off Portugal certainly doesn't seem out of
line, either too high or too low, to me. But what do I know?

<snip>

[crossposting removed]

If you compare the total number of shipwrecks in the Med, no matter what
port of origin, with supposedly hundreds of Roman age wrecks off the
Brazilian coast, then the traffic from Rome to Brazil must have exceeded the
roman shipping in the Med by a large factor.

As the wrecks from the Med are from a couple of thousand years, while Roman
seafaring only lasted a couple of centuries, this would imply huge fleets
leaving Rome for Brazil on a daily basis.

I would not accept the 'hundreds of wrecks' on hear-say.

have fun

Uwe Mueller

Also because of the extremely high rate of expected wrecks (Romans
calculated that at least 30% of cargo would have been lost by storms
or pirate assaults), the traffic was proportionally (or perhaps more)
increased, and many goods were found (ordinarily contained in amphoras
or in the larger dolia) that let us understand what the commerce was
about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_archaeology
http://www2.rgzm.de/navis/Themes/Commercio/CommerceEnglish.htm

The number of Roman ships was in the thousands, 1,200 for grain alone.
Blow the estimate out to 4000 ships making at least voyage each
sailing year (about 8 months). From the start of the Empire to 400 AD
or so that would be about 1.6 million ship/voyages. Since the loss of
ships was estimated at 30% there are 480,000 lost ships in the Med for
just 400 years.

If there are 200 shipwrecks of Roman ships in Brazilian waters that
would suggest something like 450 voyages, about one a year for the
same 400 years.

That doesn't sound like a lot of trips if they were blown off a voyage
to the Canaries or the Cape Verde islands.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Roman amphorae from a Roman shipwreck?
    ... ships were carried uncontrollably across the Atlantic to end up ... wrecked on the coast of Brazil without at least one managing to ... Roman era ships? ... result in several thousand being wrecked on the Brazilian coast. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Roman amphorae from a Roman shipwreck?
    ... ships were carried uncontrollably across the Atlantic to end up ... wrecked on the coast of Brazil without at least one managing to ... Roman era ships? ... result in several thousand being wrecked on the Brazilian coast. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: SV: Roman amphorae from a Roman shipwreck?
    ... Portugese Archaeological Service that there are several hundred Roman ... I find it hard to believe that 'several hundred Roman' ships ... the coast of Brazil without at least one managing to find its way back ... in several thousand being wrecked on the Brazilian coast. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Roman amphorae from a Roman shipwreck?
    ... Roman shipwreck-sites along the Brazilian coast, ... ships that had lost their sails and drifted across the Atlantic." ... wrecked on the coast of Brazil without at least one managing to ... result in several thousand being wrecked on the Brazilian coast. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Roman amphorae from a Roman shipwreck?
    ... Roman shipwreck-sites along the Brazilian coast, ... ships that had lost their sails and drifted across the Atlantic." ... wrecked on the coast of Brazil without at least one managing to ... result in several thousand being wrecked on the Brazilian coast. ...
    (sci.archaeology)