Re: Roman amphorae from a Roman shipwreck?

On May 30, 4:33 pm, "Peter Alaca" <p.al...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > wrote:



On May 30, 2:20 pm, "Peter Alaca" <p.al...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > wrote:

On May 30, 10:59 am, "Uwe Müller" <uwemuel...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Tom McDonald" <kilt...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb im
Newsbeitragnews:I8f7i.3245$6q.1990@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Eric Stevens
wrote:
On Tue, 29 May 2007 21:50:34 GMT, "johansson"
<1732johans...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Eric Stevens <eric.stev...@xxxxxxxxx> skrev i

diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:s73p535ao82kgblqv4ft2vepq55eso7...@xxxxxxxxxx

<snip>

I am particularly struck by the statement "I understand from
the Portugese Archaeological Service that there are several
hundred Roman shipwreck-sites along the Brazilian coast, all
apparently ships that had lost their sails and drifted across
the Atlantic."

First of all, if true, why is this fact not more widely known?
Perhaps it is not true?

Second, I find it hard to believe that 'several hundred Roman'
ships were carried uncontrollably across the Atlantic to end up
wrecked on the coast of Brazil without at least one managing to
find its way back to Europe. Is there anything in the
historical record which suggests that a ship managed to return
after such a voyage?
What route and what trade would lead to the loss of so many
Roman era ships? Almost certainly it lay outside the
Mediterranean. Whatever it was, it sounds particularly
dangerous.
Eric, remember the number of by the Goths stolen ships sailing
out via Gibraltar never heard of again.

No, I don't. I've never heasrd anything about this which might
result in several thousand being wrecked on the Brazilian coast.

The claim is several hundred, not several thousand--though I know
you just mis-typed. :-)

But I appreciate the impulse behind the unintentional inflation.
If there were actually that many known Roman-era Old World
shipwrecks off Brazil, I would have thought it would have been
mentioned in, for instance, the 'Roman Head' discussion. Surely,
if so many ships had gone to grief on that coast, a case should
have been made that the head, if it is Roman, could have gotten
to Mexico by trade. Or, of course, that an as yet unknown Roman
shipwreck in the Caribbean or the Gulf of Mexico could have been
the source.

In any case, I'd like to see some solid reference. Will's comment
is second-hand, and I begin to wonder whether she was conflating
a Portuguese government comment about Roman-era wrecks off
Portugal with a comment about Brazil. Several hundred Roman-era
ships coming to grief off Portugal certainly doesn't seem out of
line, either too high or too low, to me. But what do I know?

<snip>

[crossposting removed]

If you compare the total number of shipwrecks in the Med, no matter
what
port of origin, with supposedly hundreds of Roman age wrecks off
the Brazilian coast, then the traffic from Rome to Brazil must have
exceeded the
roman shipping in the Med by a large factor.

As the wrecks from the Med are from a couple of thousand years,
while Roman
seafaring only lasted a couple of centuries, this would imply huge
fleets
leaving Rome for Brazil on a daily basis.

I would not accept the 'hundreds of wrecks' on hear-say.

have fun

Uwe Mueller

Also because of the extremely high rate of expected wrecks (Romans
calculated that at least 30% of cargo would have been lost by storms
or pirate assaults), the traffic was proportionally (or perhaps
more) increased, and many goods were found (ordinarily contained in
amphoras or in the larger dolia) that let us understand what the
commerce was about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_archaeology
http://www2.rgzm.de/navis/Themes/Commercio/CommerceEnglish.htm

The number of Roman ships was in the thousands, 1,200 for grain
alone. Blow the estimate out to 4000 ships making at least voyage
each sailing year (about 8 months). From the start of the Empire to
400 AD or so that would be about 1.6 million ship/voyages. Since
the loss of ships was estimated at 30% there are 480,000 lost ships
in the Med for just 400 years.

If there are 200 shipwrecks of Roman ships in Brazilian waters that
would suggest something like 450 voyages, about one a year for the
same 400 years.

No, much more. Crossing the ocean is quite different.

That doesn't sound like a lot of trips if they were blown off a
voyage to the Canaries or the Cape Verde islands.

Cite?

What cite?
Do you think crossing the Atlantic is the same
as crossing the English Channel, or sailing the
Rhine and the coasts of the Med?

--
p.a.

You seem to think it's different. Therefore I would like figures like
my 30%. I have some so I need a check to be sure.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Roman amphorae from a Roman shipwreck?
    ... Portugese Archaeological Service that there are several hundred Roman ... all apparently ships that ... the coast of Brazil without at least one managing to find its way back ... in several thousand being wrecked on the Brazilian coast. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Roman amphorae from a Roman shipwreck?
    ... ships were carried uncontrollably across the Atlantic to end up ... wrecked on the coast of Brazil without at least one managing to ... Roman era ships? ... result in several thousand being wrecked on the Brazilian coast. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: SV: Roman amphorae from a Roman shipwreck?
    ... Portugese Archaeological Service that there are several hundred Roman ... I find it hard to believe that 'several hundred Roman' ships ... the coast of Brazil without at least one managing to find its way back ... in several thousand being wrecked on the Brazilian coast. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Roman amphorae from a Roman shipwreck?
    ... Roman shipwreck-sites along the Brazilian coast, ... ships that had lost their sails and drifted across the Atlantic." ... wrecked on the coast of Brazil without at least one managing to ... result in several thousand being wrecked on the Brazilian coast. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Roman amphorae from a Roman shipwreck?
    ... Roman shipwreck-sites along the Brazilian coast, ... ships that had lost their sails and drifted across the Atlantic." ... wrecked on the coast of Brazil without at least one managing to ... result in several thousand being wrecked on the Brazilian coast. ...
    (sci.archaeology)