Re: Roman amphorae from a Roman shipwreck?

On Jun 2, 6:57 am, "Peter Alaca" <p.al...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Uwe Müller <uwemuel...@xxxxxxxxxx > wrote:



"Soren Larsen" <soh...@xxxxxxxxxx> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:46612644$0$13954$edfadb0f@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Uwe Müller wrote:
"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag
news:1180548646.749923.109770@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On May 30, 10:59 am, "Uwe Müller" <uwemuel...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Tom McDonald" <kilt...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb im
Newsbeitragnews:I8f7i.3245$6q.1990@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Eric Stevens
wrote:
On Tue, 29 May 2007 21:50:34 GMT, "johansson"
<1732johans...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Eric Stevens <eric.stev...@xxxxxxxxx> skrev i

diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:s73p535ao82kgblqv4ft2vepq55eso7...@xxxxxxxxxxx

snip

If you compare the total number of shipwrecks in the Med, no
matter what port of origin, with supposedly hundreds of Roman age
wrecks off the Brazilian coast, then the traffic from Rome to
Brazil must have exceeded the roman shipping in the Med by a
large factor.

As the wrecks from the Med are from a couple of thousand years,
while Roman seafaring only lasted a couple of centuries, this
would imply huge fleets leaving Rome for Brazil on a daily basis.

I would not accept the 'hundreds of wrecks' on hear-say.

have fun

Uwe Mueller

Also because of the extremely high rate of expected wrecks (Romans
calculated that at least 30% of cargo would have been lost by
storms or pirate assaults), the traffic was proportionally (or
perhaps more) increased, and many goods were found (ordinarily
contained in amphoras or in the larger dolia) that let us
understand what the commerce was about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_archaeology
http://www2.rgzm.de/navis/Themes/Commercio/CommerceEnglish.htm

The number of Roman ships was in the thousands, 1,200 for grain
alone. Blow the estimate out to 4000 ships making at least voyage
each sailing year (about 8 months). From the start of the Empire to
400 AD or so that would be about 1.6 million ship/voyages. Since
the loss of ships was estimated at 30% there are 480,000 lost
ships in the Med for just 400 years.

And of this 480,000 wrecks how many are known? One in thousand? One
in ten thousand? That would mean that the several hundred known
Roman wrecks off Brazil would be the remains of several hundred
thousand or several million ships that tried the trip, those that
failed off the coast of Brazil.

Comparing the number of ships, which we don't really know, with the
number of wrecks in total, which we also don't know is a nice
exercise, but it does have little value. Comparing the number of
wrecks known in both areas, can provide at least a rough estimate
about frequency of travel. It is a very rough estimate, especially
as chances of discovery are much higher in the Med.

If there are 200 shipwrecks of Roman ships in Brazilian waters that
would suggest something like 450 voyages, about one a year for the
same 400 years.

That escapes me.
If 30 % of the ships are lost each trip, 200 (the minimun number for
several hundred) wrecks attest for 600 ships. But that would mean,
every disaster, every pirate attack had to happen off the coast of
Brazil and every one of those ships would have been discovered. How
likely is that scenario?

BTW

The 30% loss rate is afaik related to cargo and not ships.

I can imagine a lot of ways to loose or spoil cargo without wrecking
the ship.

Both estimates are rough, to say the least. And once we can agree
upon which math to use, and which conclusions to draw from that, we'd
have to look closer at the underlying assumptions.

Right now the big questions is wether these several hundred wrecks
are all there is and ever was, or if they constitute just a tiny
fraction of the vessels that tried the voyage and failed off the
coast of Brazil.

If they exist, if any, it is very unlikely the Brasilian
coast is the only area where they wrecked.



Could you give a rough estimate of the the total number of viking
ships capable of crossing the north sea, the number of ships having
failed off the British coast and the number of wrecks of viking ships
known off the British coast? I'm not so much interested in the actual
numbers, after all they did have no ship register, but on the
relationship between maritime travel frequencies and known wrecks.

--
p.a.

But may be the only place where they survived, even as rotted away
hulks. I live in low-level hurricane country and the local treasure
seekers here wait for a hurricane to stir up the bottom or beach to
move the sand so they can find objects cast into or from the sea. I
would think even an amphora at 80-100 pounds would be lost.

Aside: did you know that the @ sign originally stood for "Amphora"?

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Roman amphorae from a Roman shipwreck?
    ... with supposedly hundreds of Roman age wrecks ... imply huge fleets leaving Rome for Brazil on a daily basis. ... Blow the estimate out to 4000 ships making at least voyage ... coast of Brazil. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Roman amphorae from a Roman shipwreck?
    ... with supposedly hundreds of Roman age wrecks ... imply huge fleets leaving Rome for Brazil on a daily basis. ... Blow the estimate out to 4000 ships making at least voyage ... coast of Brazil. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Roman amphorae from a Roman shipwreck?
    ... would imply huge fleets leaving Rome for Brazil on a daily basis. ... Blow the estimate out to 4000 ships making at least voyage ... Roman wrecks off Brazil would be the remains of several hundred ... failed off the coast of Brazil. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Roman amphorae from a Roman shipwreck?
    ... with supposedly hundreds of Roman age wrecks ... imply huge fleets leaving Rome for Brazil on a daily basis. ... Blow the estimate out to 4000 ships making at least voyage ... coast of Brazil. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Roman amphorae from a Roman shipwreck?
    ... As the wrecks from the Med are from a couple of thousand years, ... would imply huge fleets leaving Rome for Brazil on a daily basis. ... Blow the estimate out to 4000 ships making at least voyage ... failed off the coast of Brazil. ...
    (sci.archaeology)